Editing User talk:OH&S (section)

== About Template:Toaru Toggle ==

Hello!<br>
It seems like you're the creator of the template:Toaru Toggle so I have a question for you.
Can I make my own 'template' (it won't be exactly a template but it isn't very important I think...) but largely based on yours, for the main page of the Date A Live project? I did here what I'd like to do: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Vallor_-_Tests
<br>Thanks in advance and have a nice day.
::[[User:Vallor|Vallor]] ([[User talk:Vallor|talk]]) 03:49, 5 March 2014 (CST)

'''I suppose the time has finally come to have a proper discussion about the use of templates similar to the ones that I have made for Toaru Majutsu no Index.''' I always feared that the edits I made for the sole sake of the Index Page would begin to spread to the other Baka Tsuki (BT) pages and I have seen it slowly beginning to occur. This troubles me to say the least. I don't believe that my edits are efficient enough for widespread use on multiple BT pages; yet people have taken my code regardless and still used it for pages I felt really didn't need it (I'm talking about the Owari no Chronicle page but someone with common sense changed it back). 

'''Vallor''', since you actually bothered to politely ask me for use of the code I will in turn treat you kindly and explain my position and opinions about widespread use of the code used on the Toaru Majutsu no Index. I am aware of the efforts to edit the Date A Live project page to look similar to the Index Page. I appreciate your courtesy so I will show some as well.

First let me say this: '''I, in no way, have ownership of any of the lines of code used on the Index page. This means that you can use the code regardless of how I feel about.''' BT is a community website and this is an inevitability of it. If you use the code after reading all of this, I promise not to start any editing wars; I don't have the energy to do that. I do however, have a responsibility to inform others about the use of the code as I was the first to introduce it to this site.

I guess I'll start by explaining what the purpose of the edits were.

<span style="color:blue"><big>'''WHY'''</big></span><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-collapsetext="Hide" data-expandtext="Show">
Toaru Majutsu no Index is the biggest translation project on BT that is currently up to date and is certainly one of the most popular ones. There are definitely others with more untranslated volumes released. But with about 40 novels worth of translated material and almost 70 lines in the Table of Contents alone, it is the project that takes up the most space on BT. Before the edits were made, the Index Page was like almost every other one; Just one long list of Volumes and Chapters with no novel covers. Its no surprise that the page became the longest to scroll down on BT (about 4 times longer than Date A Live is currently). To make matters worse, the light novel author Kamachi Kazuma writes LNs at quite a fast pace. Thus with every new LN, the page became longer and longer. Once it became unreasonably long I consulted the Page Supervisor in making edits to '''condense the page so that it became easier to view'''.

In other words, regardless of how the code visually looks or functions, the whole purpose of the code was to condense a really long page. In that sense, it only makes sense for the Index Page to be the sole page to have these kinds of edits. Now I'll talk about the specifics of the edits I made.
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<span style="color:green"><big>'''HOW'''</big></span><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-collapsetext="Hide" data-expandtext="Show">
Wikitables were being used on various pages in BT even before I became a user here so I thought that it was a nice and simple solution to help condense the page. Custom toggles and the like are purely aesthetic so I won't comment on them even though I also introduced them to BT. After consulting the supervisor, he suggested that the first series be split into wikitables by anime season. This made sense for Index page as the anime is the jumping off point for entering the LNs. I also split the othe sections into appropriately sized wikitables. I could split the entire translated novel material so neatly because of the way the story progressed and the groups of stories were already well defined. The tables wee also '''appropriately sized''' (about 6-8 novels in each section). After getting feedback from users, I realised that many users navigated with the Table of Contents beforehand so I had left the tables open on load so that the ToC links would work. I also added links to the ToC in each section in case one wanted to go back to it. 

In other words, '''the reason why wikitables were so effective for the Index page was because the material could be easily grouped into similar sized groups from the very beginning'''. The ToC links only made sense because '''users navigated the page using it beforehand'''. Looking at it like this, no other page on BT would find these edits useful. The page has to have a lot of material, be up to date, have its material be easily grouped (appropriately sized), and not be excessive with the number of wikitables used. The Index page is the ONLY page that satisfies all of these conditions. The edits were successful for the page as the page became more than '''5 times smaller''' in length when fully condensed compared to when all the tables are open. Once NT Volume 10 is translated, I will put NT8 - 10 in its own wikitable as 3-part story arcs are special even within Index like the WW3 arc.
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<span style="color:red"><big>'''FOR ALL THOSE THAT ATTEMPT TO MIMIC THE TOARU MAJUTSU NO INDEX PAGE EDITS'''</big></span><div class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" data-collapsetext="Hide" data-expandtext="Show">

Here are some rough guidelines for use (whether you care about them or not)

*Not suitable for projects that are not up to date with translations. There is no reason to condense the page.
*Not suitable for projects that have a small number of volumes released (less than 20) regardless of whether they are up to date or not. There is no reason to condense the page.
*Better suited for projects which can group their novels into moderately sized (3-8) groups. Wikitables should not be used for 1 or 2 volumes as the page then becomes cluttered with unnecessary wikitables.
*The code should not be directly copied from the Index page but should instead be adapted for use specifically for the page in question. The code for the Index page only makes sense for the Index franchise. I will blast anyone who blatantly copies the code.
*If edits are used for smaller projects regardless of the first 2 points, remove the 'Return to ToC' links as they are unneeded for pages of small length.
*Though it probably doesn't matter, some acknowledgement that the code was adapted from the Index page would make me feel a lot better.
*Use of custom toggles for wikitables by itself is fine (eg. Antimagic Academy Page)
*Always implement the edits with permission from the page supervisor or administrator.
*'''CAUTION''': Implement the edits during a cool off period (about a month before a new novel is released). There have been reports that the use of wikitable may initially affect whether or not the novels show up properly on the Bakareader EX app. I don't know the exact reason why but you should allow time for the problem to be resolved.

'''Pages I think are appropriate for similar edits <u>if they were fully translated</u>''': Chrome Shelled Regios, Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu, Maria-sama ga Miteru, MA Series, Monogatari Series, Moonlight Sculptor, Rental Magica, Shakugan no Shana, Zero no Tsukaima and possibly Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon and High School DxD when enough volumes are released.
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===<span style="color:purple">A CRITIQUE FOR VALLOR: DATE A LIVE</span>===
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:+ I liked how you adapted the code specifically for the Date A Live page. Specifically the Master Toggle and choice of colours.
:+ I liked how you acknowledged where you adapted the code from. No one asked you to do that. I was impressed by your courtesy.
:- I didn't like how single volumes were given their own wikitable. Even if I am lenient about 2-part story arcs, I can't agree with its use for single volume story arcs..
:- I didn't like the fact that every single side story was given its own wikitable. Along with the previous point, excessive use of wikitables is not advised because it looks cluttered. This goes back to the first 3 guidelines. These edits are not appropriate for the Date A Live page. You could at least group all the side stories into one wikitable.
:- 'Return to ToC' links should be removed. They are not approriate for the Date A Live page.
:'''Suggestion''': Do something similar to the Index page and group novels by anime seasons. Put novels 1-4 in a table titled Season 1 Novels, put novels 5-7 in a table titled Season 2 Novels, Put Novels 8-9(+10) in table with a title of your own choosing, Put the side stories into one table. Then modify your Master Toggle and remove any Back to Contents links. This way there will only be 4 wikitables to deal with.

Again its entirely up to you whether you go ahead with the edits. Just keep the guidelines and feedback in your mind while doing so. If possible, have whoever originally wanted to edit the Date A Live page look at this talk page. Remember to spread the word about the guidelines as well.

'''--[[User:OH&#38;S|OH&#38;S]] ([[User talk:OH&#38;S#top|talk]]) 03:11, 9 March 2014 (CDT)'''

Such a loooooong answer! ^^<br>
First, thank you for taking the time to reply me. I'm fully aware that your template is not adapted to 'little' pages like the ''Date A Live'''s, but someone asked me if I could reduce the size of the DAL page, advised me to see the Toaru page and I liked the way you have used so much that I came to ask you the right to make a quite similar thing right after.
Excuse me if I don't talk about all the bunch of things you said, I don't have very much to say except I'm agree with most of them.<br>
I'll comment your remarks now (in the same order):<br>
+ Thank you.<br>
+ I'm not agree. I mean, I would feel very bad if I had just copied your code and changed only 2-3 things here and there. More, I would feel very angry if someone did that with one of my creations. You spent (a long) time (surely) on this work, and it's nothing but a theft to copy it and say 'Yeah, I'm the creator of this'. I don't think like that and that's why I came to ask you before do any change in the DAL page, and why I put your name. Be sure that I'll write your handle (and not only in the commentaries) clearly. ;)
(By the way, since I began to (largely) be inspired by your work, I always said that I don't want thanks; they are for you)<br>
- Yeah, I know... Because of the small length of the page, the only possibilities we had was to sort the volumes:
* like that (1-2 volumes an arc)
* like the anime's scheme (4-5 volumes an arc)<br>
As we had some troubles with illogical color arrangements, we decided to do the way you can see right now.<br>
- I think there are too many side stories to gather them under a single banner. (I always wanted to say that. :D)<br>
- They have been deleted two days ago. Or yesterday, depending on your location...
<br><br>
Whatever my decision, if I decide to put the simili-template (that I'll try to make better) on the DAL page, you'll be the first one who will be informed of it, in the event of you're agree I use it of course.<br>
Maybe we we'll see each other again!<br>
(PS: I might have made some mistakes. I'm not very comfortable with long English written expressions, sorry.)
::[[User:Vallor|Vallor]] ([[User talk:Vallor|talk]]) 07:47, 9 March 2014 (CDT)

Hello, I am the one that proposed the clean-up of the Date A Live Wiki page.<br> 
<br><br>
First of all, you have a good point here, DAL is not as long as Index, so it may not be worth of it, but I still want to try implement this new system, first because I liked it, and liked how it works(Found lot easier than the normal way), secondly because it really does reduce the size of the page, that is my complain now.<br>
Second, DAL have a page that is not long enough, for now, but we have already 15 volumes(Counting SS) and we will be getting 16th this month, and maybe even reaching 18~20 volumes this year depending on how the author wake up every morning. That means that soon enough we will be getting bigger, so will hurt anyone if we implement it? (If you say that we can't we won't lol)<br>
Third, I thought that books should be organized as books, not as anime seasons, but after reading what you said, I realized that what I really wanted to implement on the first time I typed that messages in the forum, I think now that organizing in anime seasons is not as bad as I thought before.<br>
Fourth, I know there are pages more suited to receive a code similar to yours on their page, but well, I think this way, (I don't want to sound like a douch but) every page has a supervisor and an admin(Except for DAL), and if they don't say anything is because they are satisfied with the page how it is now, and as DAL doesn't have any responsible staff, I felt like if it was bothering me, I should act, and what was bothering me was that the page was growing a big mess, the implementation of the code is a consequence of the clean-up.

Well, I hope that you understand what I said, and I didn't mess up in what I wrote(Just woke up).

Best regards

:[[User:Nura rihan|ヌリン]] ([[User talk:Nura rihan|talk]]) 10:09, 9 March 2014 (CDT)
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===<span style="color:deeppink">A RESPONSE FOR 12BRAIAN: SEIKOKU NO DRAGONAR</span>===
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Hello! I want to know if i can use your 'template' for the project [[Seikoku no Ryuu Kishi]]?
I know this project is very poor and has few volumes, but i want to look this 'much more beautiful" like Date a Live. I make a test, if you want to view: [[User:12braian|Click]]

I expect your answer.[[User:12braian|12braian]] ([[User talk:12braian|talk]]) 00:41, 19 April 2014 (CDT)

'''In short, NO.'''
 
Date A Live may have been able to get away with it due to its popularity but I cannot extend this compromise to Seikoku no Dragonar. (I suggest you read through the above content.)

For more specific reasons:
*'''Only 5 out of 14 novels have been translated.''' Project needs to be completely translated or close to it to be considered.
*'''It only has 14 novels'''. Project needs to have close to 20 novels along with the above point to be considered.
The project just doesn't need it right now.

As for your test layout:
*While it is an interesting and different layout, I can't say it's a good one. Stick to the layout that is already used throughout Baka-Tsuki.
*Single volume wikitables  are no good. Indicators for those tables are even more annoying.
*The choice of the specific colours for the tables makes sense for each individual volume, but when put together is annoying to look at.

I understand the temptation to make your favourite project stand out in Baka-Tsuki. But my template wasn't designed to do that; it was designed to '''save space first and look pretty afterwards'''. Truth be told, I have problems with the way Date A Live has modified their page, but as I've already said, its popularity makes me turn a blind eye.
'''Dragonar may get popular due to its anime and manga increasing attention to its source material. Until then keep things plain and simple.''' The ideal application of my template is in the Toaru Majutsu no Index page. But it is still plain and simple.
--[[User:OH&#38;S|OH&#38;S]] ([[User talk:OH&#38;S#top|talk]]) 02:51, 19 April 2014 (CDT)
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'''Any future requests about the use of the toggle may be placed here.'''