Editing Talk:Format guideline

Hello, so lets kick this up, what things should we address first? 

Which things should be established first?

please use the "add comment" icon above.
Please scroll down for current Discussion.
Pervious Discussion on related format guidelinetopics have been copied here for reference.


==Volume 01, Chapter 01 Discussion==
For discussion of issues solely related to Chapter 1, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter1|the discussion page for Chapter 1]].

==== Suzumiya Haruhi's language ====
This is mostly about thelastguardian's translation of Haruhi using "kick ass".  Psieye toned it down to "awesome".  Although I am personally against using strong language, if this same crude language is present in the original Japanese, I won't complain keeping the "kick ass."
-- [[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 01:22, 19 April 2006 (PDT)


Cruzz used the word "radical" for that passage. It certainly seems the best choice but his whole style is different so perhaps "radical" isn't what we're seeking here for this translation's style.
[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 23:44, 19 April 2006 (GMT)



I guess I'll jump in to say something. The original japanese line is: 

高校にはもっとラディカルなサークルがあると思ってたのに。
Koukou ni wa motto radikaruna saakuru ga aru to omotteta no ni.

As such, I never even considered any other words except "radical". It covers both bases, and frankly I'd be willing to bet that the line is mostly referring to actual radicalness (differing from a norm).

--[[User:Cruzz|Cruzz]] 10:21, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 02 Discussion ==

==== Hyperion ====

The general story is seven pilgrims re-visiting a planet, and most of the book is composed of the life stories of each pilgrim.

I read the first life story (the priest's) yesterday.  It's one powerful piece of writing.  I'd call it one of the most striking scifi tales I've read in the past year.  If you get the chance, go read it...

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 09:45, 30 April 2006 (PDT)




==== The Fall of Hyperion ====
About this passage:

''All the members are here today. Nagato Yuki sat in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about the effects of Saturn's satellites falling down. Asahina didn't have to come but still obediently arrived, sitting on a steel chair looking confused.''

The original Japanese text is:

一応メンバーは揃っていた。相も変わらず長門有希は定位置で土星のマイナー衛星が落ちた
とかどうしたとかいうタイトルのハードカバーを読みふくり、来なくてもいいのに生真面目に
もちゃんとやって来た朝日奈みくるさんは在所なげにパイプ椅子に腰掛けている。

So far as I can tell, a better translation of the passage would be:

''Anyway, all the members were here today. Nagato Yuki was in her usual spot, reading a hardback book about a minor satellite of Saturn falling down, or something like that. Asahina didn't have to come but had still obediently arrived, seated on a steel chair and looking confused.''

Obviously, the book in question (as we've seen in the anime) has to be ''The Fall of Hyperion'' by Dan Simmons -- but equally obviously, Kyon doesn't recognize it, and thinks it's about Hyperion the satellite of Saturn. This is marked by the tentative nature of his ''to ka doushita to ka iu taitoru''.

I'm changing this passage as shown, in the body text, but I just wanted to explain why I've changed it this way. I really think that we might want to include a translator's footnote here, to the effect that we know which book is meant, but that the confusion was present in the original text, and is indisputably deliberate on the part of the author. Are we going to make footnotes? If so, this is a good place for one. 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 19:14, 19 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 04 Discussion ==

==== Once it's all over, a post-mortem will be held to review and prepare for further developments. ====

Post-mortem? That sort of suggests a death, although I know what is trying to be said, but it might give the wrong meaning to other people. I wonder if there is another word we could substitute this with? Would anyone like to give a suggestion? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 07:44, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

In the military, they use the term "After Action Report" (abbr. AAR). --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 10:10, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Debriefing? --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (EDT)

Review. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 02:22, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Review is already said in the sentence, but we could change that. Out of which do you think Haruhi would be the most likely to say? --[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 05:41, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

To be honest, I think "debriefing" fits in very well in the sentence. It also suits the quasi-militaristic secret superspy-agent-hero-fantasy world that the SOS Brigade has its roots in. "Once it's all over, a debriefing will be held to review and prepare for further developments." See? It looks good. Kudos to '''velocity7''' for ''le mot juste''.--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 05:54, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Volume 01, Chapter 05 Discussion ==

For this material, please see [[Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5|the discussion page for Chapter 5]].

== Current Discussion - New Points Discussed Here ==

== Dialogue syntax issues ==

As you can tell from the first chapter, Kyon represses a significant amount of his thoughts during conversations.  Most of these thoughts take the form of a silent aside that the other characters are not aware of.  However, there are times when Kyon's inner dialogues are leaked out into the open but the parenthesis is left out.  For example, in Chapter 1:

''After class, Taniguchi, with his mystified face, tried to corner me. Taniguchi, you look like a total moron with that expression of yours!

"Be quiet! I don't care what you say. Anyway, just what magic did you cast?"''

From what thelastguardian tells me, the lack of parenthesis is the author's style.  The reason I bring this up is because a casual reader might be confused in certain places when deciding whether Kyon speaks or not.  I believe the author's style should be reverted with no parentehsis added.  What is your opinion?

Another issue is how place the "Haruhi said" and other such lines that directly reference to a character's line.  In the current format, such lines are separated by a space.  I'm of the opinion these spaces should be closed and the short commentary following a line should be closed.  Already, this has been taken care of by others and myself in a few instances.  

''"Which is why I'm going to obtain one now," Haruhi said, like a hunter looking for its prey.''

But before I start linking dialogue to commentary, what do you think? --[[User:Baltakatei|Baltakatei]] 23:32, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Agreed on closing some of the linebreaks for dialogue syntax. Breaking a new line all over the place probably looks right with Japanese text, but English novels are written with "Haruhi said" descriptions and following commentaries on the same line as the dialogue (as well as further dialogue by the same person). Then again, Kyon's inner voice commentaries and asides I'd count as 'dialogue' and therefore require a change in line. For example, from Ch 2:

:''"I see... I understand."''
:''What did you understand?''
:''"I'll quit the Calligraphy Club, and join your club..." Her voice is so full of sadness. "But, I don't know what the Literature Club does." ''

:Oh and just to clarify, I don't think we need to add any 'somebody said,' descriptions if they're not already there - as was discussed it is pretty easy to guess who's speaking what line even if we don't get "verbalised accents" (such as trademark deviations from Standard Japanese and -yo, -desu endings).
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:48, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

::Though on second thought, ''"her voice is so full of sadness"'' and many other such descriptions feel like 'dialogue'/'monologue commentary' since this is Kyon First Perspective afterall. Mmm... maybe making a finer distinction like this would just cause more trouble. Ok, I guess only doing the no-linebreak thing with "lines that directly reference a character's line" cases would be sensible, as Baltakatei originally suggested.
::--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:42, 22 April 2006 (PDT)


=== Sentence order of interleaved dialogue and description. ===

Note in this example from [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter3|Volume 1, Chapter 3]], how Kyon's dialogue is before its description, which is the opposite of normal English usage and expectation.

EX.1a
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?" 

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''
</cite>
vs.

EX.1b
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:'''Since no one else asked, I decided to do it myself.'''

:"......What are we looking for?" 
</cite>
There are actually quite a few examples of this pattern in the text, and I assume this sounds very natural in Chinese/Japanese.  In some cases this can be worked around by rewording, while still preserving order, and in some cases it can't.  In particular, it's hard to do so when the description follows a long passage of dialogue, as in [[Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter6|Volume 1, Chapter 6]] - Haruhi's monologue.  Even in cases where it can be worked around, it usually sounds awkward to do so.

So my question is: Are there any objections to changing the sentence order in order to reflect the expectations of an English reader?  In particular, are there any places where doing so would change the meaning/impact of the text?  Of course, the second question is largely rhetorical, since nobody ''(except maybe Nagato Yuki)'' could mentally perform the transformation, and immediately post the results.

In any case, I'm willing to make the changes, but hopefully someone with access to ''(and understanding of)'' the original text can check to see that it doesn't break anything subtle, like parallelism or who-knows-what.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 21:25, 30 April 2006 (PDT)


* In that respect the first one, you cited is the one i'll expect a English speaker would say.

I think limited rewording is for the best, but large ones i think we need to consult the translators on it.
Preserving the "impact" makes more sense for me. After all thats what that part of the story was suppose to communicate to the original Japanese readers, so it would be an insult to not attempt to change the sentence to give the same effect for the English readers.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 23:43, 30 April 2006 (PDT)


* First off, let me say that I have tempered my stance.

What convinced me, in particular, was your comment that the story was originally meant to "communicate to the original Japanese readers." And I agree that in no shape or form, should we attempt to hide the fact that this was originally a book written by a Japanese person, for a Japanese audience.  ''(Let's put aside for the moment that the chapters under discussion came from the Chinese translation.)'' In this light, I'd rather have things sound slightly awkward, rather than have the meaning altered in order to facilitate a smoother English reading.  I believe people can mentally compensate for most aspects of style, as long as the meaning is there.  ''(I enjoyed reading the chapters, even before all the editing took place.)''


''(Don't read any further unless you enjoy semantics and English usage/feel issues.  You have been warned!)''


That having been said, I still feel my second example to be slightly more natural sounding -- though I ''am'' starting to see how the other could be taken as natural sounding as well.  I'm curious as to opinions on the following examples.  My own comments are at the end.

EX.1c
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:No one else is going to ask?  Fine, I'll do it.

:"......What are we looking for?" 
</cite>

EX.1d
<cite>
:... let's begin searching!"

:"......What are we looking for?" 

:-- Since no one else had asked, I'd decided to do it myself.
</cite>


The following is also from Volume 1, Chapter 3.

EX.2a (original)
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!" 

:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2b
<cite>
:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!" 

:-- A sudden shout from Haruhi, while standing on the commander's seat. Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>

EX.2c
<cite>
:Haruhi, who was standing on the commander's seat, suddenly shouted.

:"Right, let's now begin the first SOS Brigade meeting!" 

:Please stop startling people by suddenly shouting!
</cite>


This is from Volume 1, Chapter 6.

EX.3a (original)
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. 

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said endlessly as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish. 
</cite>

EX.3b
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk. 

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:Haruhi said this without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate. When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish.
</cite>
EX.3c
<cite>
:Haruhi stood by the railway tracks, sorry, the railway path, and began to talk.  She spoke without pausing, as though giving a speech in a debate.

:'''[Insert Haruhi monologue here]'''

:When she finished she gave an expression of regretting ever saying all that, and looked at the sky in anguish. 
</cite>


'''My comments:'''

EX.1c is how I mentally read EX.1b, and I suspect Onizuka's reading of EX.1a was closer to EX.1d's clarification.  I find EX.1c more colloquial than EX.1d, but either is reasonably natural sounding.  If I had to pick an "official" version, I'd go with EX.1d, though I really like the "Kyon commentary" aspect of EX.1c.

EX.2a doesn't make sense to me -- unless you want to try reading it in the Harry Potter style. ''(shudder)''  Even though EX.2c changes the sentence order, it sounds more natural to me than EX.2b, though I find either better than EX.2a in terms of making sense.

EX.3a, English grammar issues aside, has odd semantics to me.  The meaning seems to be that Haruhi spoke some words after the explicit dialogue.  However, I don't believe this to be the case, based on previous patterns in the text.  Perhaps a translator could clarify?

Ex.3b gives an unambiguous interpretation of EX.3a's meaning. EX.3c has the same meaning as EX.3b, but exchanges the dialogue/description order. I don't have a preference for either EX.3b, or EX.3c, so I would go with EX.3b, as it preserves order.


By the way, I believe it's a testament to the author that I wasn't particularly bored going over these examples along with the text.  "The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi" has excellent replay value.  Hoping one day to reread it in the original Japanese...

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 10:00, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


* ...I'am temporarily speechless.

That is some very impressive detail analysis you have there, to be honest I can't really comment on it. 

I think it's best I allow the project Editors/Translators to discuss this with you, as I feel my average English Literature isn't really up to the task. (^^;)

'''Goes back to hid in the Web Managment Cubical''' 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:17, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

== Kyon's Narration Tense ==

Kyon's Narration Tense is something we should quickly agree on I think. I point to the small conversation that started on this 
[[Talk:Format_guideline#It_is_as_if_to_her.2C_the_guys_are_pumpkins_or_potato_sacks.2C_and_she_couldn.27t_care_less. | in Ch 1's discussions]] regarding how I think we ought to first agree on what 'the present' is for Kyon's Narration.
--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 18:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

* Ahh you mean this one?

'''Does anybody have any clarification on this?

I think uniform past tense in the prologue sounds better for sure, but if he's not revealing foreknowledge in the rest of the chapters, then present tense would seem to be more logical.


'''

personally I agree, i mean Kyon speak for the present, he doesn't speak with the knowledge of the future of past.

He's the vocal of the audience.

I guess with have to check with an a translator to know if he ever does start to speak with hindsight/foresight.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 19:07, 21 April 2006 (PDT)


There are certainly times when he speaks about the future, for example, from Chapter 1: "As I said, at first I felt very irritated, but later on I learned that all those people graduated from East Junior High."  --[[User:Ryukaiser|Ryukaiser]] 20:24, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

:Yes but that's an example from chapter 1, which I've already suggested as being a "Let me tell you how I got to where I am in this newly formed, I-have-no-idea SOS-dan" backstory session. So Chapter 1 should also be in past tense I think. Chapter 2 onwards (perhaps right from the start of it, thus setting 'the present' to just after Haruhi's Inspiration for a club) should be present tense narration.

:Of course, if it's explicitly clear he suddenly adds in a comment from future hindsight, then we do that in past tense. But I think it's pretty clear when those happen - incidentally do they happen much beyond chapter 1?
:--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:55, 22 April 2006 (PDT)

Ah, well there you go.
it gets more complicated already.
i'll leave it up to you lot ^^;

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 20:39, 21 April 2006 (PDT)

Is there anything in the Japanese text that would make the present tense an obvious choice?  If not, it shouldn't be used.  The present tense is very, very rarely used in professional-level English writing because it is so awkward and difficult to read.  Usually, it's only used when aiming for a specific style or with some other framing narrative that gives a specific reason for it.  Even then, though, it is normally considered undesirable; every writing course I've ever taken has emphasized the fact that the present tense is to be avoided.  An extremely skilled writer can get away with it, but usually when they do so they'll be using it to ''deliberately'' trip their readers up or make their text seem strange (it's sometimes employed to that end in magical realism, for instance.)  I doubt that's the case here.  Anyway, it might be too late to say this, but in English-language fiction the past tense should usually be used unless you have an overwhelming reason to do otherwise; in almost all cases it is going to be clearer and flow more smoothly.  As one of my teachers once said, if you (as an inexperienced writer) are ever uncertain as to what tense you should be using, it is almost absolutely certain that you ought to be using the past tense. --[[User:Aquillion|Aquillion]] 23:31, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


Hmm, I can't find any disputes to your point - once I get Immediate Past Tense in my head to distinguish from "Far Backstory Past Tense", then I see no objection. It usually is easy to feel when the Present Tense is the best choice which is indeed rare. Ok, I'll wait to see if others have an opinion on this and we'll change the Format Guideline accordingly - I don't think it's too late and besides somebody can always do this Tense stuff for a chapter they haven't looked at before.

(Oh btw, Wiki hint: type four ~'s together and it'll automatically generate a timestamp and your name)

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:25, 28 April 2006 (PDT)


I went back to the Japanese text and found that past tense is used a lot in straightforward event narration.  The thing is that Japanese just has past and non-past.  Translators have to use context to determine whether to use the myriad tenses of English: past perfect, present perfect, etc.

Perhaps the best rule of thumb would be to use present tense for the lines that are obviously Kyon's commentary, if you are using the Chinese novels as your material.  

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 03:35, 28 April 2006 (PDT)

== anything to put on the front page? ==

just wondering if you lot got any guides you wanna put up yet?

it looks funny with those bits at the bottom. 

unless this is not necessary, then i'll remove it. it's kinda bugging me now :/

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:05, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


Hmm... it seems people are continuing to deal with the chapter-specific stuff in each chapter's Talk page so the chapter-specific discussions that were cloned above can just be moved back I guess. Regarding overall issues, well discussion seems to have stopped. For now, why not put up the points made in the Dialogue Syntax section? i.e.
1) no parenthesis for when Kyon's "inner dialgue leaks out"
2) the "no-line break for lines that directly reference a character's line"


I'd like to also put up the point of setting Kyon's narration tense with the 'Kyon is telling the story in the present from Vol 1 Ch 2 onwards, and before that he was giving backstory' rule of thumb. However, the lack of discussion on this point means we can't really put it up yet - there are valid alternate rules of thumb (e.g. most things after prologue/backstory-Ch-1 in immediate past tense) and we need to agree on one (even if that is as simple as 'whatever the original text uses').

Perhaps getting clearing the redundat chapter-specific discussions above would highlight how this has yet to be discussed?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 08:59, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


ok. well i'll just put those two points up for now. 

It'll look better with something to complain about then nothing to look at. like now. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:31, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


Regarding the "Narration Tenses" issue: to be honest, so long as we agree to stick to a consistent Tense processing standard, I'm not really bothered with what we decide on - I tend to naturally focus more on where the English doesn't seem to flow right and what tense is being used usually doesn't register as a problem to me. So, if no further discussion happens on this, shall we just say "stick with whatever tenses the original text uses" for preservation purposes and be done with this stagnant subject? I think the translators are naturally preserving the tenses from the original text so asking them to stick with that policy seems good enough to me.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 09:35, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chapters with multiple Translators Conflicting ==

I think it's best we start discussing a solution to this, best to nip it in the buds, as this has potential to happen again.

One idea I have in the future to have a translator "declare" which chapters they will commence work actively, one only. You cannot, "reserve" a chapter or do one chapter partly only to return to complete another one. Or alternativelr you could all agree together which should do which one, and we will note it down somewhere so that everyone sticks to it.

It will be easier for Editors to standardlize the entire chapter, then to have more then one translator working, as experienced in chapter 05 ([http://www.baka-tsuki.net/project/index.php?title=Talk:Suzumiya_Haruhi:Volume1_Chapter5#Translation_Issues|Chapter Chapter 05 Translation Issue]).

But then this will reduce the efficency, as most translators work faster then others, and this could result in random chapters being completed before others. at this moment i have't thought of a solution. 
but from the top of my head, we could  split the chapters perhaps? and have fall back agreements,meaning that if a chapter is not completyed for whatever reason, the assigned translator for that chapter will know that another agreed translator will take over.
food for thought.
 
[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:08, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


For small groups of people, it's best to keep things simple. Your suggested system may be necessary if we had 6+ active translators or so, but until then we can make do with a much simpler system:

Create a page where translators announce the status of their work - what chapter and roughly how much of it they've translated. I'd imagine it would be most natural to work on one chapter at a time, but in case it's not... well have the translators discuss such points between themselves? Such discussion is easy in a small group like this provided necessary information (the status page) is readily available.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 11:11, 23 April 2006 (PDT)


mmm...I suppose so.

But at this moment , there seems to be an agreement that Kinny will do Volume 01.

As for the others volumes beyond that, well that is open to debate.

Kinny and Thelastguardian favours a volume to volume approach, while i'am aware of the favouable arguments for it, i still do not believe it will ultilize the translators efficently.

however i do like your idea, it is best to show all transparency,
I think it's best to inform everyone and discuss this matter.

Disptes fears that more then one translator operating one volume will yield lower quality for faster times. 

There is a happy medium that i believe we can reach, too many translators perhaps but surely having a few quality translators on one volume with editors to suppport them will more then compensate for the fears of "inconsistent style" after all, isn't this the point of this page?

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:20, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

== Standard English Words? i.e. "Consortium" ==

Just read the added contribution from kinny on Chapter 05.

noticed you used the word, "Consortium"

sounds strange, i've heard other alternatives such as The "Organisation".

"Consortium" seems to imply a planet wide group yet Itsuki mentioned it only consists of 10 known members. when put with that even "Organisation" seems a bit grand.

perhaps "brotherhood" sounds better?

Either way i think its best we agree what words we should use, and also other important ones.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:21, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I vote for "Instrumentality" -- see discussion page for Chapter 5.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:57, 23 April 2006 (PDT)



A couple of other standardising suggestions:

1) "Literature Club" not "Literacy Club"

2) "Class 1-5" not "Fifth Class" etc

If no other discussion is generated on these two points after 2 days, I'll put them on the Format page

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 16:04, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

I completely endorse [[User:Psieye|Psieye]]'s two points. These seem like simple and obvious standard translations.

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 16:13, 23 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

--[[User:Adelina|Adelina]] 14:25, 24 April 2006 (PDT)

Got nothing to complain about that.
So i guess that's sorted. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 14:49, 24 April 2006 (PDT)



== Common Japanese terms carried over ==

Notably "Moe" vs 'Turn-On Factor' - this is something most people are familiar with and those who aren't can be pointed to an easy reference. [[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] made an edit to Ch 2 implementing Moe which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it does bring up the issue of whether we want to completely avoid all mention of Japanese words or we allow ourselves to use ones which are widely known by the general Anime fan population.

The other issue is to use "-sempai" or "-senpai": I'm going with the former.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 05:09, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I believe Moe to be fine even with normal readers, because in the very next line it says "turn on factor", so the explanation is built into the text.

--[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 17:00, 27 April 2006 (EST)

Yes, i have noticed [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] constant activitives, anymore and i might have to put him/her on the new editors list. (^^;)

I'm fine with Moe, As i tihnk majority of reads can understand it, but we can't assume that everyone knows this. Perhaps it's best to link the word to an explaination. We already began to do this already with certain words, except the linking.

As for the senior issue, well it has been general accepted that the romanji spelling of that word is "Senpai" i have yet to see anyone use "sempai", not even in fansubs, although i've seen it some dictionaries, but those are 10yrs out of date so i guess it doesn't count. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:36, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


Actually, most appearances in Ch 2 are in the "Sempai" spelling ^^;;  Well that can be changed - so we're going to stick with the "Senpai" version then?

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 06:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Agreed.

Best to put those points up, while your at it.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 06:55, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well, senpai ''is'' the romanization of the word...  [[Eleutheria|Eleutheria]]

I vote for ''senpai'', too. --[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Where's the "References & Translator's Notes" section? ==

So we've agreed to link terms and references in some separate Notes/References section, but where should this be? ['''Option 1'''] The Discussion pages of each chapter? If so, we'll have to clean up those pages - old discussions archived away (or just deleted) while leaving space for current issues to still be debated. GTO, perhaps they should be unified to look something like this?

* Table of contents
* References & Translator's Notes
* Current translation issues (with optional link to old discussions elsewhere?)
* (or maybe have Old Discussions stuck as an appendix at the bottom of the chapter's discussion page?)

Or would we rather hide casual readers from all our talk, therefore ['''Option 2'''] place Notes/References at the bottom of the main chapter's text after a horizontal line?


====While i would like to have everything related to be on one page====

But i guess thats not going to happen when people will continue to use the indivual chapters page, while it'll be great to have everything organised you must admit what you are proposing is going to a signifcant amount of time, if we use [option 1]


[option 2]
At the same time i don't think its right to mess up the chapters with the notes at the bottom. But i do like the idea of linking the words to something us, saves us all the restructuring.

I mean why don't we jus link the word when it first appears on the chapter, to the related notes/refs in the talk pages, once only.

That way if peope don't understand it, they can click it ,and get cluded in.

but once only, it'll save time from changing all the same words to have the link.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 09:17, 27 April 2006 (PDT)


Oh of course I meant we only link them once. My question was: where will that link point to? As in where do we explain what the Reference is? In the chapter's talk pages (so that people don't get spoilt of future things as might be the case in an 'all references are on this page' situation)?

Besides, Option 1 really shouldn't take much time. Ok fine, delay the "sort out discussions into current vs resolved" - how much work is it to create 1 section at the top of each chapter's talk page? Actually, this'll be much easier if I show you what I mean won't it? Ok, give me a few hours to deal with other things first, then I'll do Ch 2's talk page in what I mean by Option 1.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 10:51, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Ok, Chapter 2's Talk page has been formated as per Option 1. If you want me to do the other chapters, I'll have to do them another day as I've got approaching deadlines now.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 12:18, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I've given this matter some thought, and here's how I've tried to resolve it. I'm currently working on vol.2 ch.4, and in the Talk page for that chapter, I've set up three main sections: '''Original Text''' for the original text of the novel (which is temporary - we're not producing a Japanese bootleg, here - and only while I'm translating, as a reference); '''Translation Notes''' for ''my'' translation notes (that is, my cleaned-up versions of whatever discussion has taken place on each thorny spot, as well as remarks on in-text references); and '''Comments''' (which is where the editors, myself, and other visitors to the page can discuss the issues. The Comments section is obviously intended to be messy -- but ideally, when the translation is over, the Translation Notes section will be clean and immediately useable. When the project is complete, we can move the Translation Notes to a separate wikipage, one for each chapter), and maybe include links in the text to the relevant notes.

How's that? 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:01, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

So in the short-term, it means it'll boil down to "Translation Notes" and then a Discussion section as before. Well, certainly you've hammered out details which are plausible and I have no objections. I guess it is more sensible to just leave Discussions/Comments as a mess and leave them like that, instead of wasting time organising them into "present" and "past". Aye ok, seems we're going for Option 1 with FON's details then.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 13:23, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

Well if you blokes have the time to do it, then i have no objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 15:24, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

== Chinese vs. Japanese Translation ==

I think we need to figure out a policy for second-hand translations; not to be rude to Kinny Riddle or anything, the translations are great. It's just that we need a double-check or at least some way of making sure everything was accurate compared to the actual Japanese novel itself. Maybe not now, maybe sometime later in the future, but it'd at least put to rest these translation nuances. Like a total checkover or something, if people don't get time to actually do the sort of stuff mentioned on the main page. --[[User:Velocity7|velocity7]] 0:05, 26 April 2006 (EDT)

=== Must it be accurate to the Japanese version? ===

My point, must it be accurate to the Japanese novel?

I just think that unless its a word that is absolute vital to the plot, then i don't think slight mistranslation would hinder it much.

But then again, i don't see why we can't at leased check, if an editor has the time to do it.

I'm not saying we should start correcting whole sentence just to fit the original, but within sensible reason. And not just for the sake of perfection. (which isn't fun, when it becomes serious.)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:21, 25 April 2006 (PDT)


As we'd discussed over at Animesuki, while it's nice to be as accurate as possible to the original works, we shouldn't get too stressed or lose too much time to striving for that perfection. That's why I've put up the disclaimer that some of these translations are based on the Chinese edition - they're not identical but they convey the story accurately enough (most people don't care for the trivial details). More Haruhi scripts of decent quality is preferred over few extremely perfect scripts. Deviations by the Chinese Edition that do get spotted in our scripts can be fixed as they are spotted by whoever happens to spot them (hence why Anonymous Edits have now been allowed).

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 21:33, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

oh yeah!

........ (has a memory of a Goldfish)

er, I remember...Just wanted to inform our non-animesuki contributors over here. (^^;)

So er, guess that's sorted then. ^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 21:53, 25 April 2006 (PDT)

Hmm. Event though we agree to accept the slightly lowered standard of not having to stay true to the Japanese version, but accepting the second-hand translation from Chinese as a working standard, anyone who wants to fiddle with bringing the text in line with the Japanese version can still do so, right? 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 01:27, 26 April 2006 (PDT)


Yes that's right. We don't need to stress ourselves to get our drafts out at "identical in style, vocabulary and atmosphere to the Japanese novels" standard but anyone who wants to upgrade the text from our "acceptable" level to higher is free to tinker around.

--[[User:Psieye|Psieye]] 03:24, 26 April 2006 (PDT)

== Correct English terms for 'Shinjins" and "Locked Space" ==


This is to established the correct english terms to be used in future chapters.

The two terms to be discussed are "'Shinjins" and "Locked Space"

If there are no alternatives we will leave them as it is, but i would like to hear so alternatives.

I feel we should give 'Shinjins" an english version, perhaps "behemoth" even "leviathan" or "colossus"

As for "locked space"

perhaps, "Locked Dimension" or "Closed Dimension"?

please discuss.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 07:49, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


My general experiance with translating is that "special terms" are often better off untranslated. One good reason why is that later on, the terms may be clarified or expanded upon by the author - in such cases, if an english word or phrase had been used, it may well need changing. Naturally, untranslated terms should always be explained to readers - ie what it means and why it is left untranslated. The word "Shinjin" is an existing word, which could be translated as "godlike person" and in the world of Haruhi, I think that is close to the intended meaning. The word doesn't accurately describe the being, and is pretty vague anyway, so translating it into an english word doesn't necessarily help. A word like "Titan" implies something large and with a human-like shape but a "Shinjin" isn't a physical creature or even alive - maybe something like "Golem" would more appropriate, but even then it implies something solid and physical while a Shinjin certainly isn't. In the case of "Heisa Kuukan", "kuukan" is simply space or dimension in this case, while "heisa" could mean either "closed" (as in a factory being closed / shut-down) or "exclusive", "isolated" or "closed" (as in a "closed system" or "closed society"). I think the second meaning of "heisa" is the intended meaning for "Heisa Kuukan" - ie "Isolated Dimension". Not translating special terms also saves on long-running arguments as to the "best" translation :)

--[[User:84.12.192.200|84.12.192.200]] 10:55, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

* mm...I kinda like "Isolated Dimension" 

It does convey instant communication to what it means.

Not so sure about the "shinjin" though....

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:11, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

Just brainstorming here:

''heisa kuukan'' : Sequestered space, disconnected space, dead continuum, dissociated space

''shinjin'' : Titans, Avatars, Colossi, Engrams

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 13:06, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


oh hey! "Engrams" sounds cool! It's somrthing i'll use to name my personal Mecha! But then again  no one will understand what it's meant to be, but "Avatar" ...mmm...

<cite>
"Those blue creatures, we call them ''''Avatars'''', but, as I've told you before, they are greatly related to Suzumiya-san's mental condition. We're the same, of course. Once a Locked Space appears, once the ''''Engrams'''' begin their movement....."
</cite> 

actually "Engrams" do sound good, but "Avatars" is just as good. Can't decide yet.

As for the "locked space" i still like "Isolated Dimension" (^^;)

Edit: Actually I gave it some thought, and "Avatar" seems to be the one i like best.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 13:16, 1 May 2006 (PDT)

As pseudo-scientific as it is, "engram" is actually the closest thing you come to a term describing what the blue giants's function is. Of course, it is laden down with baggage from its use in Scientology and NLP. 

--[[User:Freak Of Nature|Freak Of Nature]] 14:04, 1 May 2006 (PDT)


Since we're already using English translations for some of the other terms, it may be best to continue doing so for all other terms, in the interest of uniformity.  SOS Brigade instead of SOS-Dan, or Information Entity.  

I'd go for Avatar for Shinjin, since those blue giants are manifestations of Haruhi's subconscious.  If we want to go for (pseudo) scientific, why not take a leaf from Freud's book and call them Avatars of Id, Id being the part of us that operates solely on the basis of utility, not caring what other people think.  Come to think of it, Haruhi is almost all Id.

As for "Locked Space", something about that wording just makes me fidget.  The kanji for heisa mean "Closed and Locked", so I'd like a term that adequately conveys both meanings, as well as being suitably poetic or descriptive.

[[User:Eleutheria|Eleutheria]] 07:56, 2 May 2006 (PDT)


well, lets get this straight, are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names? 

personally, I don't mind either, but it might be easier for us to decide on these matters if we decided which path to go before hand that will best suit the atmosphere of the novel.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:40, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

i believe we should use "sealed dimension" if it's decided that the group will use their own translation, as stated earlier, that the author might go more into it, though if anyone read all the novels out, they might be able to help.

Do i need to post my uder here too?

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 09:02, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

Urk... anything but Engrams...  why not just pop for "thetans" or "xenu" if you're gonna use that. I've got an idea... you could use "Engram" if you also use "Closet" for the locked space.  Like "Tom Cruise has a huge engram trapped in his closet."  (My apologies to scientologists... or not).  Anyway, to suddenly become serious, I've always like idea of "pocket dimension" or "hammerspace"... so if you apply similar ideas to the fact that this is Haruhi's moods that dictate these things - how about "mood space" or "doom space" or "spontaneous dissociative personality disorder dimension"

ps: is "Kyon" Japanese for "LRon"?

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 15:37, 2 May 2006 (PDT)


*** LOLOLROFL!

Some very creative & amusing alternatives, but let us not stray from the critical points here, and decide on an answer first to therfore know which types we should consider.

(^^;)

So I will ask the question again.

'''are we going down the pseudo-scientific names or the descriptive non pseudo-scientific names?'''

Which will it be? Which suit the novel best? 

If we agree it should have a more pseudo scientific  theme, then "Engram", "Avatar of Id" or even the creative "thetan", "Xenu" "Combine" would fit the bill, but if we are simply going for a more descriptive English alternatives, "Avatar" , "Clossi" or "titan" it should be.

By deciding on one of these paths,it will allow us to easily narrow down the choices for us the pick the most suitable.
(^^)


My personal choice on this matter after some thought suggest to me that a more pseudo-scientific term seems to be the most fitting.

everyone please consider this question, and tell me what's your choice.

P.S: No Chumsize, I do not believe "kyon" is Japanese for "LRon", as so much as "Dick" (which stands for "Richard") is English for "Rin" (^^;)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:01, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I may not be an expert on what sounds good when translating Japanese to English, but my personal preference lies with just Shinjin. Although, I've never really been a big fan of Americanizing terms myself, but I don't see the point in trying to think of a unique term when there's already something fairly unique-sounding right in front of me... In any case, don't know about everyone else, but I've already grown quite fond of calling it just that.

-UltimaLuminaire 16:41, 2 May 2006 (PDT)


* We have already given unique Japanese terms the English equivalent, so unless there is a good reason for this to be an exception, it seems logical to keep this consistence.

If people think it's fine as it is, let us hear your view, if the majority think it is fine them it will stay.

But if it does, then we will have to put some notes just to inform the readers what this term means, or something.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 16:58, 2 May 2006 (PDT)


Hi all, I'm new to this group. (Feel free to remove this part)

That aside I'd normally keep certain Japanese words "as is" in the translations simply due to words that can't be concisely tranlated in to another language, which is English in this case.

That being said, may I ask what is the actual kanji that is used for both "Shinjin" and "Heisa kuukan"?
The suggestions for Shinjin so far seem to be fair translations of what it is, considering it's a giant humanoid of unknown constitution. The term Avatar does appear to suit "Shinjin" best though, according to apropriated translation above.

Locked space or closed space seem a little ambiguous as translations though, even if they may be direct translations of the original characters used. It appears to be more like is an alternate or parallel reality, where some things exist and are identical to the "normal reality" and the rest are absent (that being presence of constructs and general lack of living organisms). To add the notion of the seperate "reality" being inaccessible to all but a tiny few, I suppose one could try to define it as a restricted/confined reality. I don't really think space or dimension are as good a translation as a reality, since the term reality in itself, implies what could happen if the restricted/confined reality was no longer as such.

[[User: Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 01:24, 3 May 2006 (GMT)


I personally won't mind the use of romanji or kanji-terms, they sound and look cooler anyways, and we all know what they mean.  However, you guys might have to add footnotes saying how one should describe those terms, IF you are going to stay with the original translations.

However, i still support the use of "Avatar" and "Sealed dimension", just because they sound better and fit better.

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 05:31, 2 May 2006 (PDT)



* Unfortunately I do not know what the kanji are for "Shinjin" or "Heisa kuukan" but hopefully a Translator might provide you the characters.

In the mean time lets summaries the status of this topic:

There are two users who are supporting the current use of the Romanji

For alternative English translation for "shinjin" the term "Avatar" has several users who find this to be favourable.

For an alternative English translaton for "Heisa kuukan" there seems to be consensus that it should be changed, but no clear choice has yet to gain substantial favour.

Contributors who have yet to expressive your views, please join in, to help resolve this debate.
 
(^^)

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:50, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

shinjin - 神人
Heisa kuukan - 閉鎖空間

...here you go

[[User: asukira|asukira]] 18:11, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I'd vote for Titan.  They were human-gods and they were huge.  Avatar has nothing to do with Shinjin and is basically making something else up to describe it.

Crazylegs


My vote... actual vote...  no jokes...
shinjin = "demigod"   -  the english meaning of this word can mean "not quite man, not quite god"... seems viable
Heisakuukan = "dissociated space"   - I like the reading of heisa as "unsociable"... and this conveys it...

[[User: chumsize|chumsize]] 21:38, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

I also like the word "avatar" a lot, for the reasons others have already described.

As for "heisa kuukan", I agree with Da~Mike's notion that the word "space" or "dimension" is insufficient as a translation. If we're already going with descriptive names, I too would prefer the term "reality" to "space" or "dimension". It invokes the connotation that "heisa kuukan" is akin to a parallel plane of existence altogether. The term "reality", in this case, is much more descriptive than "space" or "dimension" (not to mention that this usage of the word "dimension" is itself erroneous).

As for the qualifier, I think "sealed" works really well (i.e. Sealed space, Sealed reality) -- it doesn't sound as awkward as "locked space" or "closed space", IMHO, and it accurately describes the properties of "heisa kuukan".

So, to sum it up, votes for "avatar" and "sealed reality".

[[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 21:53, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

To the person that said Avatar doesn't fit, that is not true. Look up the term Avatar at dictionary.com. It has many connotations that parallel the Shinjin. For one, the term Avatar is used to describe an entity that has manifested due to a source. Anyone who has knowledge of Dungeons and Dragons (ergo: Forgotten Realms) or any other fantasies thereof would understand this term and the uses it has (ie: an Avatar of a God or Goddess *wink wink*). However, that's one of the setbacks to such a term. It's more widely used than many would think, and holds a sort of redundance if it was used (and I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have Suzumiya Haruhi stay low on the redundant side, which the translators and editors so far have done admirably). All the choices up till now have reflected well with the style of the anime, and I'm very biased towards afk's translations, so keep that in mind if you're reading this. ;) 
It's really up to you to see if Avatar really fits.

As for Heisa Kuukan, all I can say is that after reading it as Sealed Dimension, it's hard to go back, but I'm also pretty open to Locked Dimension. They both sound fairly suave to me. I do not understand why the term Dimension is so erroneous here since it's connotations seem to be similar in fiction.

UltimaLuminaire 23:00, 2 May 2006 (PDT)

:: (Re: UltimaLuminaire) 

:: The word "dimension" formally refers to any sort of a spatial extent: depth, height, width, height, for example. The concept is also very precisely and formally defined in the fields of mathematics and physics.

:: Contemporary science fiction authors misuse the word to mean alternate or parallel universes and such (i.e. He travelled to another dimension.) -- and that just irks me. Although I guess you can argue that since this usage of the term has become so commonplace, it can no longer be considered erroneous.

:: I guess I'm just being a prescriptivist prick. =P

:: [[User:Synecdoche|Synecdoche]] 22:34, 2 May 2006 (PDT)


mmmm..."sealed reality" doesn't seem to roll off the tongue as readily as "sealed dimension" or "Sealed space". 
How about a compromise? "dissociated Reality" sounds pretty good.

Has the right amount of big words. (^^)

As for "shinjin" it seems that "avatar" is more or less certain, unless there is more objections.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 05:17, 3 May 2006 (PDT)


I was surprised at the amount of discussion this issue has caused, even though I really shouldn't be, as I've known about the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_the_bikeshed bike shed] principle for awhile.  This is the first time I've seen it on a scale like this though, as I've never participated in a distributed project before.

'''My own thoughts on what makes a good name:'''
# Can say less than the term means, but should never say more.
#*You will be hearing the term so many times, that the meaning-associations will be set up, regardless, and you won't need whatever mnemonic it is that you wanted to build into the name.  If you accidentally added extra meaning to your term, you'd be stuck having to mentally negate that meaning every time you read it.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.  In other words, it doesn't bring to mind any images that you don't want associated with your term.
#*Think of all the extra baggage that comes with terms like, say ... "Demon", "Demigod", "Titan", "Troll", "Behemoth" -- They all say something of what the Shinjin are, but at the same time, they add meanings and connotations that simply aren't there in the story. It's very counterproductive to add erroneous meanings, only to have to work to undo them afterwards.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.  Especially extra emotional baggage.
#*What if "Neon Genesis Evangelion" were released now, and the "Angels" were called "Terrorists" instead?  The use of "Angels" carried plenty of emotional baggage, but it was baggage that was intended.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.  Including any unintended connotations as to the nature of the namer.
#*That's why I'm against any strong pseudo-science namings.  A name like that gives the impression that we know more than we do. Again, that extra information in a nice sounding name is just extra baggage -- especially if something later in the story directly contradicts what's in the name.
#*On the other hand, since it is a group of paranormals who did the naming, it's perfectly reasonable to have a paranormal bent to the naming.
# Doesn't have any extra baggage.


'''That being said,'''
:I'm perfectly content with
::*either "Shinjin" or "Godlike entity" ''(its generic English counterpart)'' for the glowing giants,
:and
::*any one of "Locked/Sealed Space", "Locked/Closed/Sealed/Isolated Dimension", or even the romaji "Heisa kuukan."


'''With respect to "Avatar":'''
:*I feel that it adds images not present in the original term -- as per my #2 point.  The emphasis is on the fact that it's a manifestation of Haruhi's frustration.  The original naming emphasizes its capabilities, e.g. "godlike being." -- and this is the aspect people with paranormal capabilities would be more interested in, I believe.
:*The first thing I think of when I think of the Shinjin ''(not the name, the thing)'' is "Holy hotcakes!  Big glowing things!  And they might destroy the world if they're not stopped!"  Their power, in other words.
:*Conclusion: Medium spicy objection. Not my favorite, but not the worst suggestion of this discussion.  Please add a translator note, no matter what term you choose.


'''With respect to "dissassociated reality":'''
:*This immediately brings to mind the psychological concept, "disassociated from reality." And that ''definitely'' has a lot of extra baggage to deal with, semantic, emotional, usage-wise -- the works.
:*Conclusion: Strong objection. Please use one of the more generic sounding terms. Again, at the very least, please add a translator note, no matter what.


Whew.  In closing, let me say that participating in this bikeshed discussion was rather fun.  I guess that's why they're so popular!

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:24, 3 May 2006 (PDT)