Editing Talk:Zero no Tsukaima:Volume1 Story1 Chapter1

== Terminology to Standardize ==

Sushi-Y has made a forum post that pretty well obsoletes this section.  Check it out [http://www.baka-tsuki.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=294 here] instead.  -- this unsigned statement was made by [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] on 2006-08-20 16:13:58.

One term not defined there, which shows up all over chapter 1 is 使い魔, currently translated as "Familiar Spirit."  I'm wondering if we should trim that down to just "familiar."  A related term is 春の使い魔召喚, which could translate to "Spring Familiar Summoning ceremony" or something similar.  Any thoughts? [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:05, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

Another one is 幻獣, currently translated as "Illusion Beast."  When Cala-kun was on IRC last night, he seemed to imply this was a pretty generic term for a magical creature, not a specific reference to one specific type.  I could have misunderstood him though (I think he was talking about it in a different context than I see it now).  I'll also ask about these in the forums.  [[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 18:39, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

== Chapter One ==

=== Page number ===

I'll keep the page numbers for now, until we get the first half of the chapter.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 08:31, 19 August 2006 (PDT)


Actually just keep the page number, the other groups will need it for the scans.

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 17:12, 19 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 12 ===
'''The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the blue sky which seemed like it would fall out behind her.(1)''' She seemed to be around Saito's age and she '''wore(2)''' a white blouse with a gray pleated skirt under a black cape. She crouched down, looking at his face as if she was (2.5) disgusted.

Her face is... Cute. '''Her reddish-brown eyes danced, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin for their stage.(3)''' She seems like a foreigner. '''Well... She is(4)'''. But she is such a cute '''foreigner girl(5)''', like a doll. '''Or is she a half?(6)'''

Anyway her uniform, I wonder which school it belongs to? I have never seen it before. 



'''Saito seems to be lying with his back on the ground, he lifted his head up to look around.(7)'''

There were a lot of people with black capes '''looking at him as a stranger.(8)''' There, on an endlessly rich grassy plain, he '''finds a huge castle with stone walls in the distance just like he has seen in those European trip photographs.(9)''' This was just like a fantasy. 


Okay. Everything I highlighted and numbered in bold are points I'd like to bring into attention.


'''(1)''' This sentence seems rather odd. How does the sky '''fall out behind a person'''?
Is the girl looking '''at''' Saito's face, '''staring at''' Saito's face or '''looking/staring''' into Saito's eyes?

* Yes, but if you have ever stared up at someone while laying outside when there is a clear blue sky, it's like looking down upon a blue ocean, and anyone you happen to look up, seems to be "falling" into it, because there are no point of reference between the person in your view and the blue background of the sky. 
The author is trying to describe this image.

perhaps "the blue sky seems to engulf the girl from behind, who was staring into Saito's eyes"

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 11:21, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:The sentence is awkward, but literally it's talking about the "blue sky which seemed like it would fall out" -- consider that one unit. So "The girl looked into Saito's face steadily, with the (blue sky which seemed like it would fall out) behind her."

:if you search for the phrase "抜けるような青空" on www.alc.co.jp, you'll see it referred to as "bottomless blue sky", "pure blue sky", "bright blue sky" -- it appears to be a set phrase, and you can probably either take that as-is, or try creating a phrase halfway between literal and poetic. And "falling out" can also be "falling free" or "escape" -- so if you think about it, the image makes sense as a figure of speech.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

'''(2)''' Wore –> was wearing. If I’m not mistaken, the word “wore” is strictly reserved for anything described in past tense. The story so far seems to be told in present tense.

* the_naming_game has had a look at he raws, and spoken to cala-kun and has mentioned they are not so strict with tenses, so best bet is to put them into past tenses.
It's easier. 

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 12:17, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(2.5)''' "disgusted" may be a little strong.

呆れた -> 呆れる 【あきれる】 (v1,vi) to be amazed; to be shocked

Cala-kun didn't seem to register any special tone in the sentence that would push interpretation to "disgust" -- he seemed to agree with the dictionary definition of "amazement, shock"

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(3)''' I'm not too sure about the phrase "...red eyes danced..." but I think it may be lacking in description. It might sound better if written as "Her red eyes danced '''about'''".
The rest of the sentence: "...with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin '''for their stage'''" does not make any particular sense. What is "for their stage" supposed to represent? Her age?

:It seems to be "stage" as in "reddish-brown eyes danced, framed by strawberry blonde hair and flawless white skin" -- so that would be the more idiomatic interpretation. But if you think about it, "stage" isn't too far off the mark.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: Ah. That clears things up.
My new change: 
"Her reddish-brown eyes dance, with her strawberry blond hair and her flawless white skin as their stage"
for their stage -> as their stage

:[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

'''(4)''' Is "Well... She is" the actual statement? I assume that "Saito" comes to this conclusion since she does not appear to be of the Japanese ethnic (presuming Saito is Japanese).

:ガイジンみたいだ。というかガイジンである。

:Gaijin appearing is. Well, actually... Gaijin IS.
::(as in, he's correcting himself. she doesn't just LOOK like a gaijin, she IS one. I'm not sure of the reason for a "da" in the first sentence, and "de aru" in the second -- both different ways of saying "is", the second being more formal -- not too sure about the exact nuance there, though.)
:She's kind of foreign looking. Come to think of it, she probably IS foreign.
::(extra interpretation added by me, because I can't think of a simpler way to provide those nuances of "looks like" vs "resembles", and getting the dynamic of his self-correction right. But I'm pretty sure it means something like that.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(5)''' foreigner girl -> foreign girl


'''(6)''' This sentence on its own is ambiguous since the noun that should follow the word "half" is absent. While this would seem clear enough to people well versed in Japanese "pop-culture" (and for people who think about the options of what the girl could be half of), I think that this should be clarified slightly. e.g. '''"Or is she half-Japanese?'''

:いや、ハーフだろうか？

:No, half perhaps?

:Just for reference.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(7)''' I moved the sentence down since I noticed a change of writing style (from the first person, to the third person). This however, may be the unusual manner of writing that the author chose to use.

:Talked with Cala-kun about it. Here's his translation: "It seems Saito somehow ended up on the ground facing up (at the sky)." I think that's pretty clear.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

: "Somehow Saito had come to be lying with his back on the ground"
had come to be lying -> found himself lying

:[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]


'''(8)''' Under normal circumstances, the vast majority of people are strangers relative to oneself. In this case, assuming that it is common for people to wear black capes at that particular school (or that Saito looks like an alien compared to the others), a more appropriate sentence would be: "There were a lot of people with black capes looking at him as a '''though he were a''' stranger".

:黒いマントをつけて、自分を物珍しそうに見ている人間がたくさんいた。

:Actually didn't think to talk with Cala-kun about this. I don't completely understand the sentence's grammar, but it seems you can interpret this as more than "stranger" -- he's a novelty, and object of curiousity. Those make more sense in context. "looking at him curiously", "looking at him as they would a novelty."

:I also want to take the time to point out that "mantle" is the actual word (in katakana) used in the original. I thought of using "cloak", but "mantle" is really the best translation.

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)


'''(9)''' Unless Saito was specifically looking around, I don't think the word "finds" is appropriate. I would suggest words such as "sees", "saw", "spots", "spotted", "notices", "noticed" .etc

Again, due to the somewhat ambiguous transition between the past and present tense (and that I haven't looked at the Japanese script yet), I can't decide on an accurate substitute.


[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 17:07, 20 August 2006 (GMT)


*I Interpreted them as past tense, but then again the first half is talking from a first person perspective.

I guess it's best to check.

got to get cala-kun help, or naming_game

[[User:Onizuka-gto|Onizuka-gto]] 10:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

:豊かな草原が広がっている。遠くにヨーロッパの旅行写真で見たような、石造りの大きな城が見えた。

:A lush grassland extended endlessly. A huge castle with stone walls was visible in the distance, looking like something he'd seen in those European trip photographs.
::(I wasn't sure about what was confusing, so I just reworded to clarify what I think the meaning/sense is. Note how I changed the sentence structure back to a more literal translation.)

:[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

(This a comment on my additions to this entire section.)

I spent an inordinately long time fiddling with the Japanese of that first page back in the "Japanese language discussion" thread, and I cleared up pretty much all the uncertainties with pg 12 and some of pg 13 talking with Cala-kun last night, so I can actually clarify THESE parts. Most of this wisdom is second-hand Cala-kun stuff. I'll note the Cala-kun approved stuff, so you can tell the ones that are more certain.

[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 13:33, 20 August 2006 (PDT)

=== Page 14 ===
"Mr. Colbert!"
'''The girl who has been called Louise shouted(1)'''. The wall of people divided, '''and there appeared a middle aged man.(2)'''

'''Saito thought it was funny. Because this man looked ridiculous.(3)'''
He '''had a big wooden cane(4)''' and was wearing a '''black robe that covered him.(5)'''
What kind of look is that? He seemed like a wizard, is he sane?

I got it, this place must be a place for cosplay.
'''But this atmosphere doesn't seem right for it.(6)'''

All of a sudden Saito was gripped with fear. What am I going to do if this was an religious 

group? It is possible.
They must have put me to sleep some how and brought me here while I was taking a walk in 

town.
That mirror must have been a trap. If not I have no explanation for this.

Stay quiet, '''until he knows what was going on(6)''', Saito thought to himself.

'''That girl Louise keeps on talking, saying "Let me try it again", or "please", and shaking''' 

'''her arms wildly.(7)'''

I felt sorry for her to be in this weird religious group, especially since she is so cute.

"What is it, Miss. Valiale?"

"Please! let me try the summoning one more time!"



I'll use this symbol '''->''' to indicate that I have or want to substitute something.

(1) -> "The girl called Louise shouted" (removed "has been")


(2) -> "and there, appeared a middle-aged man." (added a comma and a hypen)


(3) -> "Saito thought it was funny because this man looked ridiculous." (joined the two sentences)


(4) -> "sported a big wooden cane" (used the word "sported" to emphasise that the man looks ridiculous)


(5) Does the black robe cover him '''entirely''' or? Robes are either worn or donned. I don't think they "cover" people. Other ways to suggest how the man is wearing the robe would be: "the black robe was draped over him" or "the black robe hung from his shoulders".


(6) -> "But this doesn't seem to be the right atmosphere for it." (Mild grammatical change)


(7) -> "until he knows what is going on" (I don't believe people think to themselves in past tense...)


(8) -> "That girl Louise kept on saying "Let me try it again", or "please", whilst shaking her arms wildly." (IMHO, Louise was being described in the past tense, not the present tense.)

[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]] 19:01, 21 August 2006 (GMT)

===Page 15===
I've done some rewriting to this page, but one passage still has me stumped:
 "You fix a future attribute in the familiar spirit which appeared by a summoning and then advance to a specialized course with it. You can't change the familiar spirit once you've summoned it, because the Familiar Spirit Summoning of Spring is a holy ceremony. Whether you like it or not, you don't have a choice but to have him as your familiar spirit." 

The first sentace completely baffles me.  Is the "fix a future attribute" supposed to mean something with respect to the different types of magic?  Would a reasonable rewriting be (though the terminology would still need to be corrected):
 "Your [magical aptitude] is determined by the familiar spirit you summon, so you'll be taking special advanced classes on it. ..."

[[User:BlckKnght|BlckKnght]] 17:56, 20 August 2006 (PDT)
===Page 16===
(1) I have no idea. -> I don't understand.

(2) It might be possible to find a chance quickly, and run away. -> It might be possible for me to find a chance and quickly run away.

(3) An abduction! I was being abducted! -> An abduction! I have been abducted!

(4) "You are kidding me..." -> "You have got to be joking..."

(5) Louise drooped her shoulders, disappointed. -> Louise drooped her shoulders in disappointment.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

===Page 17===

(1) "Louise stared at Saito's face as if it was troubling to her." -> "...it was troubling her."

(2) "Hey," -> "Hey."

(3) "It usually never happens, a thing like this, done by a noble." -> "It usually never happens; a thing like this carried out by a noble."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 18 ===

(1) "Just be still." -> "Just stay still."
 
(2) "Uh! I told you to be still!" -> "Uh! I told you to stay still!"

(3) Louise roughly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand. -> Louise gruffly grabbed Saito's face with her left hand.

(4) The touch of soft lips confused Saito more. -> The touch of her soft lips confused Saito more.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 20 ===

"Her face is red. '''Is she embarrassed by her impudence?''' What an idiot, Saito thought."

This is a minor issue, since I'm not entirely sure how impudent Louise has been. Saito's appearance was anomalous thus, I would think one would be granted a bit of hesitation.
The source text for this sentence would be most helpful.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 21 ===

(1) "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected, to stop them."  - > "the middle-aged, cosplaying man interjected to stop them." 

(2) " but I can't just lay around quietly -> "but I can't just lie around quietly"

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 22 ===
(1) "The feeling of heat lasted only for a second." -> "The hot sensation..."

(2) "The middle-aged cosplaying man who is called Colbert came to the kneeing Saito, and checked the back of his left hand." -> "...man known as Colbert, came to the kneeing Saito and checked the back of his left hand."

(3) "It looks like a wriggling snake, in a pattern he had never seen before." -> "...in a pattern I have never seen before."

(4) "...he really lost it." -> "Saito really lost it." (to minimise confusion)

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 23 ===

(1) "Everyone who was floating flew towards that stone wall castle quietly." -> "Everyone who was floating flew towards the stone-walled castle quietly."

(2) "The only ones left behind were the girl named Louise and Saito." -> "The only ones left behind was the girl named Louise and Saito."

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

=== Page 26 ===

<cite>
Maijis those flew away from here and those fantasy word connect.
</cite>

Maijis?

Mages perhaps?

(2) "Tonight's dinner is hamburger." -> "Tonight's dinner is hamburgers."

I personally dislike this sentence. I changed what little I could to make it sound better.
While I am aware that "hamburger" is how Japanese people literally refer to beef patties, I think it should either be edited to fow well in English or a translation note be added for this.

--[[User:Da~Mike|Da~Mike]]

== Zero no Tsukaima Unified Guidelines ==

Hello, in this thread we will discuss terminalogy, the correct speeling and words ofthe translation. 

It is best that we get this out of the way, as at Baka-Tsuki has experienced, failure to not lay down these issues first will result in delay, and unnecessary disagreements.

For example, an entry could look like:

ガンダールブ - Gandalfr

or

竜の羽衣 - Dragon's Raiment

or

カトレヤ ラ・ヴァリエール - Kattleya La Valliere

something like that.


This does not apply to Translators, they shoud not be pressured to change their translation habits, it is up to the editors to correct the script.


--onizuka-gto


Quote:

'''I have a headache. Saito said as he shook his head.'''


Is he talking to himself outloud or in his head?
Since no speech marks i assume it's in his head.



Quote:

'''"which commoner are you from?"'''


is she asking him which commoner location he is from, or what type of commoner is he?
i think she is referring to which region of the this world he is from.


Quote:

'''Louise of Zero'''



How are we going to standardlized this phrase?

Zero Louise
Louise the Zero


I favour "Zero Louise"


Quote:

'''I don't see any building to symblize it'''.


it seems to me like Saito is trying to say, that he does not recognise any building typical to a school campus

Quote:

Was there any location like this in Japan?


I interpret this as saito saying was there any location like this in Japan, with a western castle on a wide open field....


Quote:

'''Let me try it again, or please and shaking her arm wildly.'''


I have no idea what this is suppose to mean.

Is saito trying to plead with louise for help? or is he just observing her actions?


Well i;ve done a first pass of part one of k.neko's script.

I'll start on the other tomorrow morning. hopefully we will get the rest of the sript then i can do a second on the complete chapter.


--onizuka-gto


'''Zero no Louise'''
I will use my favorite example for the Japanese "no" ... in many ways it's like the Chinese "de" .. but I digress.

"Hoshi" = "celestial body" -- both planets and stars.

I believe these are the official English titles for these songs. One is a Gackt song, the other is an anime soundtrack, I believe by Utada Hikari. I heard both on kawaii-radio.net, so the info is as reliable as they are.

"Hoshi no Suna" -> "Star's Sand" -> "Star Sand"
"Suna no Hoshi" -> "Sand's Planet" -> "Sandy Planet"

"Zero no Louise" -> "Zero's Louise" -> "Zero-y Louise" .... ?

I imagine "Goose Egg Louise" to be something you might hear in some British schoolyard somewhere. The Britons here can weigh in on this. "Louise the Zero" seems like another likely name. "Zero Louise" sounds less likely. But honestly, I don't really care. They all sound fine, and we'll get used to any of them in time.

'''I don't see any building to symblize it.'''

Sore rashii tatemono wa dokonimo mienai

      sore : that
      rashii (aux-adj) seems
      tatemono (n) building
      dokonimo : nowhere -- see here for the example sentence "Went nowhere this weekend."
      mieru (ru-verb) to be seen; to be in sight; to look; to seem; to appear -> mienai : negative present

That like building nowhere not-looks-like.
(Note that Japanese appears to use a double negative for this.)
That kind of building nowhere appears.
You won't see that kind of building anywhere.

(Well, that's my guess, anyway. Man, I thought we were supposed to be EDITORS.)

'''"which commoner are you from?"'''
From the example sentences I've seen, it's better translated as "What kind of commoner are you?" or "What kind of commoner is this?" -- the subject really isn't specified, so you have to use context. If it's Louise talking, it'd be "you." If it's from the peanut gallery, it'd probably be "this."

I'm more inclined to go with "you" since that's what the translator chose. There are just some things you really can't reason out, and this seems to be one of them. I'm assuming the translator, being "Yuko", is a native Japanese speaker? We can probably trust large scale decisions, then, but have to be suspicious of the trip to English.

'''I have a headache. Saito said as he shook his head.'''
Zutsuu ga suru. Saito wa kaburi wo furi nagara itta.

kaburi wo furi : shake one's head (opposite of nod)
furu : shake (ru-verb) -> furi ... the verb stem for -masu, and lots of other things. Like "go" iku -> iki-masu (polite form)
nagara : while -- see here
iu : say (u-verb) -> itta : past

Headache doing. Saito shook head while said.

(Oh great, I did all that work, and still can't tell if the "said" refers to the headache part or the part that comes next. Going by Japanese convention, it's probably the headache statement.)

'''That girl Louise is keep on talking. Let me try it again, or please and shaking her arm wildly.'''
I've ended up looking at more Japanese tonight than English. While I do want to learn, it's a lot crazier on a deadline. I'm not going to do the same pretty here, but it's basically this:

That girl Louise keeps on talking. "Let me try it again", or "please" ("onegai desu"), and shaking her arms wildly.

----

Ok, time to study some more. I found a lot of things that are in those last few sections. After I finish those, I have to fear for the things that aren't in those sections. (there's jgram.org, though) Would love to draft a Japanese language consultant. But then again, if we had one, they'd be translating, wouldn't they?

Ugh. Took me way too long to write this up. Will have to optimize methods. Didn't get to do much editing -- and just on a local copy. It's a pretty major rewording of the first and start of the second pages, as a warning.

P.S.

'''@Kawool'''
If you happen to be listening in on this thread, I fully admit to complaining. Yet there are still a lot of fun parts. Complaining just happens to be one of them. But not the only one!

'''@onizuka'''
Are you able to come on irc? Discussion would be faster that way. If tonight is getting too late for you, sometime tomorrow?

'''@everyone'''
Same goes for the others. It'd be nice if we could all meet up twice before the deadline. I'd prefer IRC, because I don't have to install anything, but I'll do MSN if I absolutely have to. My IRC client can't do Japanese, unfortunately.


--the_naming_game


I rather do msn mainly because I can't make heads or tails of IRC and i get sensory overloads from all those different speed scrolling text, and partly because i don't have to install anything.

:Wink:

tomorrows fine.

msn details below. Please pester me after noon GMT

:Wink:


p.s: i''ve removed security tag.

only those with permission can access special pages such as special:recentpage.


--onizuka-gto


absolutely not objective as i prefer Louise the Zero due to the fact we use that...


--Kawool


okay .im awake now. im on msn as of now.

so any immediate discussion of the edit, please do so now.



Quote:

'''=summon servant='''


I substitute this as "The spell of Summoning"

Quote:

'''=servant contract='''


I substitute this as the servant contract spell

I also remove speech marks for saitos dialogue, the reason being that it was not consistance, and we all know that in the first part, saito could not communicate to the other anyway, they don't understand Japanese.

Quote:

'''"Mr. Colbert! A =flood='s mommolancey has insulted me!"'''


=flood='s mommolancey?

I have no idea what is this suppose to mean.

edit: oh okay it explains in the next page.

i would change it to "Mommolancey the Flood"

or even floods of mommolancey


--onizuka-gto


Quote:
'''I also remove speech marks for saitos dialogue, the reason being that it was not consistance, and we all know that in the first part, saito could not communicate to the other anyway, they don't understand Japanese.'''

I think that's a change that was made for the anime, and that in the novels he can understand things from the beginning. He can be understood too, not that anyone cares much what he says.

Anyway, I think the key passages that will explain that for sure are yet to be translated, so we'll see.


--BlckKnght

need someone to c
heck page 21 - 22


seems like in the novel saito can be understood by louise, but not by others.

so removing some of saito's speech marks might be in error, when he is addressing louise.


--onizuka-gto


momolency ??? are you sure its not Montmorency?


--Kawool


oh right. well that was what was in the translation. 


--onizuka-gto



'''Ch1, page 35-39 comments.'''
Much as I was loath to look at the text out-of-order, curiosity got the better of me. I have to say, that I'm pretty impressed with Cala-kun's translation. I can't find very much that I'd want to change, and what I would is mostly nitpicky stuff. No grammar or spelling problems whatsoever.

To the other editors, if the security hole gets plugged later, and you feel you want to reformat lines to form a single paragraph, note that as long as there is no space between lines, the wiki automatically makes it one paragraph. Please do that instead of actually joining lines, because then the diffs tend to be a lot nicer. Wikipedia does have a per-word diff, but it's really a line diff followed by a word diff. Not quite the same thing.

'''Also, there is'''
'''a place near the end of page 39 where the tense changes.'''
Quote:
'''Her eyes were like a curious kitten's, and her eyebrows traced a subtle line over them. If Saito had met her through the message boards of a dating site, he would've hopped and leaped for joy. But alas, this isn't Earth. Not matter how much he wants to go back, he can't. Saito choked up at this thought, and his shoulders drooped.'''

Original text -- incidentally, it was formatted in two paragraphs; the kitten sentence was separate.
Quote:
　'''目は子猫みたいによく動く。生意気そうな眉が、目の上の微妙なラインを走っている。'''
　'''出会ったのが出会い系の掲示板なら跳び上がって喜んだかもしれない。でも、ここは地'''
'''球じゃない。帰りたいけど帰れない。才人はせつなくなって、がっくりと肩を落とした。'''

I am against normalizing the tense.

First, because those two sentences are in present tense in the original.

Second, because I believe that use of present tense has a few possible meanings that would be lost if we changed it to past tense. If we take the text as Cala-kun has it, then it sounds like the author is interjecting his thoughts. This is a little confused by the fact that Saito is said to have that thought in the last sentence. But since "thought" is never explicitly stated in that last sentence,

      It's true; there's no literal mention of "thought"; it just says that "he felt badly, and heartbrokenly let his shoulders droop." It may be strongly implied in Japanese; I have no idea.

      ----

      I've done a breakdown of that sentence, just to make it clear. Note that this is based on grammar knowledge I've only recently learned, so I could easily be wrong about something. Corrections welcome, obviously.

      (Please excuse my romaji. If everyone here says they prefer hiragana+katakana+kanji, I'll switch for any future such discussions.)

      "Saito wa setsunaku natte, gakkiri to kata wo otosita."
          o setsunai (adj): painful -> setsunaku (adv): painfully
          o naru (ru-verb): become -> natte: te-form; in this context, I consider it to be this usage.
          o gakkiri (adv,n,vs): heartbroken-ness (noun -- I interpret "gakkiri to" as "with heartbroken-ness" ... I can't currently imagine how to interpret it as "heartbroken-ly")
          o kata (n): shoulder
          o otosu (u-verb): drop, lose, let fall -> otosita: past tense
      (All of these can be looked up at wwwjdic; just check the "Check if the keyword is romanized Japanese" option.)

      So as literally as I can make it:
      "Saito became painfully; with heartbroken-ness, drooped his shoulders."
      (The following could be wrong, but is to the best of my current knowledge.)
      "Saito became in pain, and with heartbroken-ness, drooped his shoulders."

(But since "thought" is never explicitly stated in that last sentence, ...)
you really can interpret it as an author's interjection, setting the mood, describing the situation, and afterwards, the character reacting to the situation on his own terms. If we take the past tense, then we're affirming those as Saito's direct thoughts, but I can't really imagine that to be so. They sound far too literary and grandiose, to my ear. Saito's thoughts were probably both more vague and more explicit like: "I really wanted to see that new 'Zero no Tsukaima' anime this week." and "Where the hell am I? What's going on?", and so on.

The other interpretation I can think of, is that the subject is actually "I", and not "he" -- there actually isn't an explicit subject or topic in the original Japanese of those present tense sentences. Using that, you could interpret "But alas, this isn't Earth. Not matter how much I want to go back, I can't." as Saito's internal dialogue. Then the sentence after, would be a switch back to normal narrative. I'm somewhat partial to that, since it's something I do in my own writing style, but oh well. I believe the first interpretation is more likely, as per my previous thoughts on the thoughts Saito would be more likely to have.

I've said my piece. I really don't know the way a native Japanese speaker interpret things. Most likely he wouldn't bat an eyelash at the tense change. Or maybe there's a certain sense given by the tense change? Or is this some sort of convention? Wonder if we could bother Cala-kun.

I'm also curious to know if he did any tense changes in his translation. I didn't note any in that paragraph, but it'd take me too long to go through all pages that same way. Maybe I'll be faster in a few months.

'''"Hmm. But that's (note: possibly referring to the element association?) the only thing I don't understand."'''
My opinion is that it's referring to the computer, since right afterwards, Saito challenges her by talking about the computer, not by asking if they have anything like a "science" element in their world. Also, I think the "only thing" part should be left in, because Louise is trying to be dismissive of Saito. If she says "But that's what I don't understand." -- that indicates she wants to know more. I doubt this is true, at least for the moment.

'''"Had died"'''
You would have to make Saito's following question into "Had what?" to match ... please, no, for the love of Haruhi...

Possible, if "has died" is truly objectionable:
Quote:
'''"Completely ineffective unless the familiar you first summoned dies."

"What are you saying?" ("Say what?" "Does what?" "What?")'''

I don't know how to interpret Saito's "What?" --「なんですと？」in the Japanese. I segment that sentence as "nan desu to?" My likely wrong interpretation is "What is it that you said?" (I interpret "to" in context to be the interpreted quote operation. However, there is no "said" type verb following. I am just guessing it's left off as slang. But this is a WILD GUESS. After all, there's already an accepted shorthand ("tte" -- って) for that. Someone please help!) The safe interpretation is just "What?" I've given up on trying to parse it, for now. It's probably not a major point, anyway.

----

Where should we put discussions like this? I assume the talk pages would need that same comment protection. I guess it's the forums then. Sorry for being nitpicky ... that's why I'm an editor.


--the_naming_game