Editing Talk:Spice & Wolf:Volume1 Prologue (section)

== Discussion ==

(1) Literally, I think it should be "In this village, the beautifully ripened ears of wheat swaying in the wind _are_ said to be the wolves running.", not merely that there is some correlation between the wheat swaying and the wolves running. But this sounds odd. Same deal with the first half of the third sentence.  Best I could come up with was to insert "when", but the text here makes no reference to time, unlike the second half of the third sentence (時). Also, should I go with "it is said", instead of "they say"?

: "In this village, when the resplendently ripened ears of wheat are swaying in the wind, it is said that "a wolf is running". From their appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what seems like a wolf running in the wheat fields. When the wind is too strong and the wheat stalks fall over, it is said that "a wolf trampled them". When the harvest is poor, it is said that "a wolf ate   it". Don't you think it's better like this? --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 01:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)

: I don't want to put quotes in, because I think such quotes would correspond to 「」 (e.g. see what Lawrence says in the last para of page 22), which aren't present here. Reading it again, I think it refers to one wolf, in fact, '''the''' wolf, not many wolves, going by the katakana furigana next to 狼. I'm going with "it is said" as well. Rewritten it to reflect this, what do you think? -- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 11:34, 18 February 2008 (PST)

: The use of katakana here does not indicate emphasis, IMHO. In Japanese animal names are usually written in katakana when they are written in kana, and this applies to furigana as well. This is my first edit (and my second try at it) so hopefully I got things right... -- [[User:Duncan|Duncan]] 6:30 PM, 01 October 2008 (EST)

:  I think you should try to rephrase the sentence a little bit so that it will sound a bit better. "To this village, the walk of a wolf is symbolyzed by the swaying of the rippened ears of wheat in the wind. Their swaying in appearance somewhat orchestras a wolf roaming inside the field. It is also said the trail of a wolf can be illustrated by the fallen wheat stalks ripped by the strong wind, while a wolf taking its share on the crops are shown by the poor harvest seasons." [[User:Anonymous|Anonymous]] xx:xx, xx February 2008

: "In this village, when the ripe and resplendent wheat sways in the wind, it is said say that a wolf is running, because from its appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what appears/seems to be a wolf running through the wheat fields. Also, when the wind is so strong that the wheat stalks fall over, it is said that a wolf has trampled them. At times, when the crops are poor, it is said that a wolf has eaten them." I'll edit it. If you think something isn't quite right, change it. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 11:51, 25 February 2008 (PST)

Sorry, huge post incoming.

I disagree with many of your edits on 25 Feb 08. Some because I think the actual meaning was misinterpreted, many because of stylistic disagreement, and many more are just my nitpicks. I'll elaborate on some of them further down. I'm not sure I want to change most of them back though, because I expect lots of other people will have ideas on how things should be written as well, and these will continue to differ from mine. For my part, that's ok; I'm maintaining my own private copy of the translation on my comp separate from the one here. It consists of the parts of my own translation that I'm happy with, and will contain parts from other people's that I like, so any edits that I disagree with here won't affect me. I also think that a 'free say' approach, as opposed to a 'go through the (not so good to begin with) translator' approach will lead to much more discussion, and I think I'd enjoy discussion on any aspect of the translation, no matter how small or nitpicky. I hope you (and anyone else) won't take my disagreement here (and in future) the wrong way. :) I'll express my disagreement, maybe even blunty at times, but only for the sake of discussion.

On to the details. Your edits are on top, mine prior to them below:

  it is said that a wolf is running,
  they say that the wolf is running.

I feel it's _the_ wolf, not merely a wolf because 狼, which is a fairly common character, has furigana next to it, and the furigana is in katakana rather than the more commonly used hiragana. This feels like special emphasis to me, though I haven't read enough books in general to be able to properly judge. Also, I use 'they' instead of it to link it with the fifth line:

: I skipped over the "{}" explanation before and didn't know that's furigana added by the author. Thought it's something you did on your own. I've read some manga in Japanese and, indeed, when katakana is used as furigana, the author tries to put a bit more emphasis on the word. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 04:01, 27 February 2008 (PST)

: True, but see my note above about animal names... -- [[User:Duncan|Duncan]] 6:30 PM, 01 October 2008 (EST)

  Sadly, those things are now said as petty witticism, while almost nobody speaks them with the affection and fear of old.
  They now say these things lightly and casually, while almost none speak of them with the affection and fear of old.

I think 'these things' refers to the things in the first three lines. Using a common 'they' throughout links them together, whereas if you use 'it' for the first three lines, there doesn't seem to be a good way to connect them with the fifth line. While 洒落 does mean witticism, [http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=%E6%B4%92%E8%90%BD%E3%81%9F&dtype=3&dname=2na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=01916500 洒落た] can also means fashionable. [http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=%E3%81%A1%E3%82%87%E3%81%A3%E3%81%A8&dtype=3&dname=2na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=02770300 ちょっとした] can mean 'significantly' as well as 'slightly'. It's sort of like the words 'quite' and 'rather' in English. I went with 'casually' to capture some of the 'fashionable' meaning, and 'lightly' to capture some of the 'witticism' meaning, but honestly I'm not sure how to properly translate it. I can't remember why I dropped the ちょっとした (i.e. why I didn't write something like 'rather lightly and casually' instead, might have been because I was trying to make Horo sound more firm overall in the prologue. There are too many と思った s and  similar things present already, maybe I figured I could avoid introducing another uncertain word here. I don't think the things said were meant to be witticisms exactly though, and I don't think ちょっとした has the sense of 'petty' here. (maybe 'slightly' or 'significantly', or maybe even vague)

: Ah, what about 'rather jokingly', or simply 'jokingly'? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 18:26, 25 February 2008 (PST)
: If the line is changed to "those things are now said" the connection can easily be made, don't you think so? --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 04:01, 27 February 2008 (PST)
: At the very least, even if you chose to use your version "almost none speak of them " should be "almost none speaks them" --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 10:46, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  because from its appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what appears to be a wolf running through the wheat fields.
  From it's appearance, swaying in the wind, you can make out what seems like wolves running in the wheat fields.

Given the size of a wheat field, I don't think it'll only seem like one wolf. Also, in the last line of the prologue, it says that '(In) the wheat fields, _many_ wolves were running'. I don't think 'because' is necessary. In the Japanese text, there is no indication that it is a direct explanation of the previous line, but given it's content, implicity it's supposed to be. So I don't think we have to be explicit here, just state the content of the line as it is.

: I was left with the impression that it was stating the reason for the first line. I don't have time to check through it right now, as I have to go out, but I'll definitely check that line one more time tonight.

: Oh I think I see, 麦畑の中を狼が走っているように見える'''から'''だ. I thought the から meant that 'the appearance of wolves running could be seen '''from''' the middle of the wheat field'. Is it supposed to be explanatory instead? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 04:19, 29 February 2008 (PST)
: Yes, in my opinion, it's explanatory. I may be wrong, but the 2 lines make more sense if it is. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 10:19, 29 February 2008 (PST)
: I think I misunderstood another thing as well. I thought the よう here meant 'appearance', but is it used here in another sense, e.g. one of the senses [http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=%E3%82%88%E3%81%86%E3%81%AB&stype=0&dtype=3 here]? Would the よう in 麦畑の中を狼が走っているのようは見える have the meaning of 'appearance'? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 07:12, 29 February 2008 (PST)
: Literary: "It seems as if a wolf is running in the wheat field." or something like this. I don't like it that way when the whole sentence is translated though.  --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 10:19, 29 February 2008 (PST)

  At times, when the crops are poor, it is said that a wolf has eaten them.
  When the harvest is poor, it is said the wolf has eaten it.

Your sentence has an explicit sense of 'there are times when the crops are good, and there are times when they are poor', which isn't present in the original. Also, I think 'when the crop is poor' would be better, 'the crops are poor' feels like it's looking at individual crops, while 'the crop is poor' feels like it's looking at the harvest as a whole. Maybe this is just me though.

: I wasn't sure whether it should be crops or crop when talking about everything that has been harvested so it's my mistake. :S --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 04:01, 27 February 2008 (PST)

  The people of this village, who tend to the wheat year after year, live for no longer than seventy years.
  The people of this village who tend the wheat, passing year after passing year, live for no more than seventy years.

It's 来る年も来る年も [lit: coming year after coming year], not simply 年がら年中 or 連年, so I think it should be stronger, like 'passing year after passing year', not simply 'year after year'. I gave even more emphasis to 'passing year after passing year' by flanking it with commas, because I think the prologue has a sense of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_no_aware ''mono no aware''] and I wanted to bring it out in this line. Might not be the right choice though. Maybe there's no extra need for me to emphasize it. Strunk and White also says to put parenthetical (secondary, descriptive) phrases within such commas, but I don't know about the converse, and here I'm trying to emphasize it rather than make it seem secondary.

: I, too, noticed it's the coming year after coming year, but it just sounds strange(to me at least) in English to say passing year after passing year. But I guess that if Horo's age is taken into account... maybe in the past they did say passing year after passing year. But it just sounds strange. So I changed it. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 04:01, 27 February 2008 (PST)

  Ultimately, it feels like I'm not needed here anymore.
  Ultimately, I think there is no longer a point in me remaining here.

The original Japanese line had a concluding quality to it, i.e. ultimately, this is what Horo thinks. The first line is shorter and more compact, so I feel it is more conclusive. Also, see Momogan's comment on とされて below. The breakdown is とする -> とされる (passive form) -> とされている (te form) -> とされていない (negative), so I think the literal meaning of 自分はもうここでは必要とされていない is 'I'm already not needed (by them) to be here'.

Few other things outside the prologue as well, getting long and maybe this isn't the right section for them. I'll talk about them later. - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 17:59, 25 February 2008 (PST)




(2) Oooh, I get it. the flaw in a gem part simply describes the next sentence. What Horo is saying is that the trouble that is like a flaw in a gem is the fact that nobody speaks the phrases from the first three lines with the affection from the past. I'll translate しかし as "sadly" instead of "however". I think it's better that way here. But I guess that brings us back to the previous line which  doesn't really sound as good. 

(3) What exactly does むしろ mean? How about "Perchance so many centuries of stasis is bad."?

: To start things off, someone from the forum felt that stasis was too modern a word, and has sci-fi connotations. I don't feel it is so, what do other people think? The only alternative word I can think of is 'changelessness', but this is clumsy. [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 09:53, 9 February 2008 (PST)
: How about "stagnation"? "Perhaps so many centuries of stagnation are rather bad."... that's what I got after 10 minutes of trying to translate the sentence. むしろ= 寧ろ= rather, better, instead. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 01:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)
 
: Stagnation isn't quite the same as stasis. The former means not progressing, the latter means no change at all, which is what the text here says. I'm going with 'without change' for now. I'm still not quite sure about the meaning of むしろ here. The sentences that use むしろ that I've seen so far use it to compare one thing with another. I'm not sure what's being compared here though. I've rewritten the sentence and put in an alternative, thoughts? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]]

: With the things said in (2) now it makes more sense. She's saying that perhaps it would have been worse if things hadn't changed over all the years that have passed and people still said and acted as back in the old days. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 11:51, 25 February 2008 (PST)

(4) What exactly does 何よりも and とされていない mean here?

: より= from, out of, since, than. So I translate the sentence like this:
: "Since when/For how long have I felt that I am no longer necessary here." or maybe
: "For a long time now I've felt that I am no longer needed here. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 01:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)

: Momogan mentioned to me in a PM (amongst lots of other things) that 何よりも means above all things. I'm going to go with 'Ultimately' here. - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 11:34, 18 February 2008 (PST)

: とされていない is the passive of としていない. Horo is not needed -by- them, hence the passive is used. [[User:Momogan|Momogan]] 00:41, 20 February 2008 (PST)

(5) Should this be "Returning my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I see my proud tail wagging before my nose." instead? Does a ーば suffix always mean a conditional statement? There are also furigana next to 自慢 and 尻尾, even though they are both fairly common compounds. Could this be emphasis, representing how Horo regards her tail with special pride? Would italics work here, i.e. ''proud tail''?

: I think the sentence should be "If/Should I return my gaze from the sky to the wheat, I would see my proud tail wagging before my nose." at the very least. I don't know about the other version because I'm bad at reading kanji right now... I won't change it for now, gonna leave it up to you to decide. --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 01:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)

: Apparently, since the second half of the sentence is in the past tense, the ーば here really means something like the second half follows from the first half. (Not sure if it has to be a direct consequence, or could be something weaker). - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 11:34, 18 February 2008 (PST)

: I'm changing this a bit. Gonna pull the "my gaze" closer to the beginning of the sentence. What do you think? --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 10:25, 29 February 2008 (PST)

(6) "All seems well on the outside, but it is thought that there is trouble/are annoyances here and there, just like flaws in a gem/crystal." I added the here and there on my own, because I think it sounds better with it. Gonna leave it up to someone more skillful to decide whether this is good or there is something better. BTW, is this line showing Horo's thoughts on the subject or her explaining what somebody else believes? Considering the next line I guess it's the latter...  --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 02:14, 15 February 2008 (PST) 

: I'm not sure about this line as well. I think though, that we can interpret the ある here to mean not just simply 'present', but also 'present and hidden', like a 'flaw in a gem' since 'all seems well on the outside'. I've gone with 'latent trouble' and rewrote the rest of the sentence as well, what do you think? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 11:48, 18 February 2008 (PST)




:Does such a tone work for Horo? [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 09:06, 10 February 2008 (PST)

:I think it does :) --[[User:ShApEsHiFt3r|ShApEsHiFt3r]] 01:49, 15 February 2008 (PST)



=== First few lines ===

I just made a lot of changes. Think the format of discussion is getting unwieldy, gonna try third level headers like this for new discussions. I'll reply to some of the things above here.

I've reverted to 'it is said' instead of 'they say'. It just doesn't feel like there's a 'they' present at this point in the text, although implicitly there should be. Still not happy with the first three lines though. There's the difference in the (A)ことを(B)という and (A)の時は(B)いう sentence structures which I don't know how to reflect in English. Was that why you introduced the 'At times'?

風が強すぎて麦穂が倒れる Is there a explicit connection between the wind being too strong and the wheat ears falling over, or is this just a sequence of actions?

- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)



=== 上手｛うま｝い表現だが、迷惑なものもあるのが玉に瑕｛きず｝だな、と思った。===

I prefer 'All appears well' to 'All appears well on the outside' since the former sounds short like 上手い表現. I think 表現 has the connotation of '''external''' appearance, but the word 'appears' already suggests something external. 

Just realized it's not merely (A)と思った but (A)、と思った. The latter feels more emphatic to me. Don't really know how to explain it, but I think something like '(A)、it seems' or '(A)、I think' would be closer to it than 'it seems that (A)'. Feels like there's something similar going on with '(A)だが、(B)だな、' as compared to say just '(A)だが、(B)'.

- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)



=== しかし、今となってはちょっとした洒落｛しゃれ｝た言い方になっているだけで、昔のように親しみと恐れをこめてその言葉を使う者はほとんどいない。 ===

Could しかし、(A)だけで、(B) mean 'Simply (A), while (B)'? i.e. the しかし isn't comparing this sentence with a previous one, but rather two parts of this sentence?

ちょっとした洒落た I dropped the ちょっとした and broke up 洒落た into 'habit' and 'jest', but I'm not sure whether both senses are actually present.

'No one speaks' is correct. But should it be 'none speak' or 'none speaks'? The latter sounds odd to me. (Also, if anyone can clarify, Strunk and White says to treat 'none' as singular when using verbs with it, unless it's a situation where 'none' can refer to more than one thing. I don't really understand what such a situation can be.)

Is 言葉を使う者 more impersonal than 言葉を使う人? (i.e. using 者 vs 人) If it is, I'd prefer something like 'none', if it's not, I'd prefer something like 'no one' or 'nobody'.

- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)



=== 来る年も来る ===

What about 'year after passing year' instead of 'passing year after passing year'? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)



=== ただ、だからもう昔の約束を律儀｛りちぎ｝に守る必要はないのかもしれないとも思った。 ===

I've translated the ただ as 'And', but what exactly does it mean here?

(A)かもしれないとも思った What exactly does the とも思った mean? Dropping it, I would understand (A)かもしれない as 'Maybe (A)', so would  
(A)かもしれないと思った be 'Maybe (A), I think', and (A)かもしれないと'''も'''思った be 'Maybe (A), I '''now''' think'?

- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)



=== その雲の流れる先、北の故郷のことを思い出してため息をつく。 ===

Does the sentence imply that the memories come '''from''' where the clouds are headed? I read it as two separate things, 'where the clouds are headed' and 'memories come to mind', and implicitly (but not explicitly) the first part is related to the second part. Would 'where they are headed, memories come to mind' be grammatically correct (albeit odd sounding)? If so, I'd like to keep it as this. If not, I prefer 'From where they are headed, ....' 

How about 'northern home' (without any 'my') for 北の故郷? I'm trying to avoid using 'I' or 'my' as much as possible up till the last two lines.

- [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 01:01, 2 March 2008 (PST)




と思った and かもしれない appear very frequently in this page, and in the text I've gone through so far. I know that expressing uncertainty like this is a common part of speaking Japanese, but should I make some of them sound more certain? - [[User:AlephNull|AlephNull]] 11:34, 18 February 2008 (PST)