Editing Talk:Hidan no Aria Archived (section)

== Fuuma's speech to be changed==

I would like to change all of Fuumas "I" to "Oneself"/"myself" or "this one". Anything along those lines represent the "Sessha" she uses to refer to herself. 
I would like opinions on this matter, for while "Myself/oneself" is my favorite, it should be the most easily-read one that prevails. 

--[[User:Novium|Novium]] 22:59, 2 May 2011 (UCT)



http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2527&p=82653#p82653

Forum backlink.


--------
An example would make things more clear. Though personally I think it a pretty good idea. It does conform to the ancient/honorable/humble manner of speaking. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 18:46, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

<nowiki>*</nowiki>Facepalm*. You know what, let's just change all of Patra's "I"s to "My Majesty". Also, "Myself hasn't been able to meet with you for a while," "Oneself hasn't been able to meet with you for a while," "Me myself hasn't been able to meet with you for a while," "This unworthy one hasn't been able to meet with you for a while."

I'm not budging. This is ''not'' open to discussion. How does a servant refer to himself in front of his lord in ''English''? "Your lord master, your servant hasn't grown enough crops this year."?. That's what somebody says when they speak to God. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 19:02, 3 May 2011 (UCT)
 
--------

Yoake also has a point. But check this page out as well. It might help. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illeism Illeism]. Just keeping an open mind here. I mean fansubbing translators usually do try and keep the Japanese manner of speech in their work rather than completely going English. The exotic manner is rather appealing. Just a thought though. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 19:08, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

I have an idea of how to completely retain the meaning. I write warawa or sessha and then link to the wikipedia page. That sound good? - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 19:28, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

That is also a good idea. AH! Found it! This link would be better: ''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns''. For Archaic references like ''sessha'' appending ''#Archaic_personal_pronouns'' would help ''(subsection link)'' [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 19:36, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

----------
I was actually joking because that's amazingly retarded and nobody really cares enough, but, whatever floats your boat. Good luck fitting warawa in when I used me rather than I to refer to her.  - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 19:38, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

Yeah, I'm being rude on purpose. I feel that the English language has no way of showing how bad of an idea I think this is if I don't resort to vulgarity. Rather, 'better; is a comparative phrase, and since I never actually mentioned a noun to which to compare to, a better word would be 'good'. At any rate, これは全然ひどい、全然無意味、全然迷惑なことって絶対変わらず。 - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 19:47, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

 
----------
I see. But you also do have a point. Not everyone would be able to understand right off the bat that way. Oh well. By the way they actually did used to say ''"My liege, your servant requests permission to withdraw."'' or ''"Your servant would like to beg forgiveness for his tardiness."'' Rankings in the Royal court did actually effect the manner of speech greatly. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 19:54, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

Please. Please. Please. Please. Please. Don't make Fuuma say 'your student'. Please. Please. Please. Please. Fansubbers can translate how they want, the seas could boil and the Earth would crack, but don't make a ninja call herself 'your student' in front of Kinji. There's an t/l note already, can we let it go? I'll make a concession and expand on it as well as adding a link.- [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 20:03, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

Naze nara... kore wa zenzen hidoi, zenzen muimi, zenzen meiwaku na koto ka? LOL. Jodan desu. Yes explaining in more detail in the Translation Notes and References pages is also another good idea/option. Actually I think it is the best one yet. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 20:10, 3 May 2011 (UCT)

 
-----------
There is one short reference. But seriously Yoake, please consider what I am proposing seriously.
I'd like to stress that I am not attacking your translations here; I'm giving an opionion, not demanding word-by-word translations. If this insults you, I apologize for not putting it in kinder words. 
But I won't have you being rude without properly hearing me out. It is demeaning.

Now, back to the matter itself:

There are archaic english that would properly convey the nuance of her speech; and I belive it would be worth the effort to try getting it across. 
Now, I don't want to be harsly spoken, and I respect you work Yoake - In fact I really enjoy it. I just think we should be able to work something out to make it more along the authors intentions.I myself am not a native speaker, but I can see how: 

"Oneself hasn't been able to meet with you for a while," should be written  as "One has not been able to meet Instuctor for a while", reflecting the inpersonal part of sessha, and the second-part reference to oneself. Hasn't and the like are actually a good idea in my opinion, but they can be written to make a point of reflecting speech-patterns instead of as a rule.
As for Patra, aren't a royal "We" sufficient to reflect her nature coupled with a notice in the text?

In fact, most light novels translations fail on this part and I think everyone here could try to figure something out together instead of bashing the notion. Is that too much to ask for from a free wiki?
I sure don't think so.

 
Is this insufficient? I think that we should be able to see merit in this proposal. 

With respect /  --[[User:Novium|Novium]] 00:07, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

Well done, great explanation. Strong points. What do you think Yoake? There is ''some'' weight in the arguments is there not? Indeed such ways of speaking have been used in ancient literature as well as medieval times. And yes, in English the use of the words "We" and "Us" are plural forms however they were used by royals to refer to themselves (them being the leader/representative of their people probably brought on that effect). The use of plural form is regarded as a sign of great respect in many languages. That is a hard fact. Humility also meant referring to oneself in the third-person. The arguments are indeed sound. Are they not? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 00:27, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

A famous example of the use of "One" and "Oneself" for self referral is the character of Andrew Martin in the film [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicentennial_Man_%28film%29 Bicentennial Man]. It chronicles the story of a robot and his journey into humanity. Before being ordered by his master to use "I" Andrew referred to himself as "one" or "oneself" as originally programmed to do so. It's a wonderful and beautiful story, you guys should try seeing it sometime. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 02:35, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

No.

Third person referral has a completely different meaning in Japanese. Since there is no equivalent for one, third person referral through using their names such as Riko saying "Riko" instead of I is a very feminine style of speech. As such, I'm not willing to use any third person. Go look at the forum. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 07:00, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

I've read the forum posts. Now I understand why "One" or "Oneself" is not used here for "Sessha". It might be equivalent in some respects but not exactly. I see. I learned something new. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 13:50, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

I can agree with the royal "we". That's it. = [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 15:14, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

See, discussions can actually help improve oneself if you see them in a certain way. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 16:10, 4 May 2011 (UCT)

I am not a translator or even an editor and therefore have less value than the dirt on your shoes. But in light of my self-deprecation I hope you will accept my opinion. I agree with Yoake. Even someone referring to themselves as 'we' is a little weird to read in English, since it is not something that anyone ever does, unless they are a faggot. (forgive me) Imagine someone calling themselves we... If you want to create a suitably "exotic" atmosphere I think including suffixes after names, and leaving some nouns untranslated (but obviously in romaji) is good enough. -blackfaia

That's only because there are very few countries nowadays where kings and queens reign in full power (England has royalty but they're only figureheads). However, the royal terms "we" and "us" have been historically proven to be used. Pity English doesn't have honorific terms for the word "you" other than "Thee". Just an info tip. Not trying to revive this talk. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 03:45, 28 May 2011 (UCT)