Editing Talk:Hidan no Aria Archived (section)

== Question about Translation Notes ==

Why are the translation notes and references on a separate page when they can be even more easily shown as a list at the bottom of each chapter via use of the '''ref''' tag? It's so bothersome to have to either navigate to a new page or open it in a new tab or window just to see a small note. Using the '''ref'''erence tag allows for in-page navigation (ie: new page doesn't need time to load, screen just zeros in on the reference or back to text ''without'' page loading). So why? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 11:48, 22 May 2011 (UCT)

Well its ''even'' more bothersome if you have to look up these references yourself. HnA is a light novel that has a substantial number of references and allusions to famous people, furthermore it is up to the translators creed. Also how is it that difficult to click on translation notes that simply opens a new page? Unless the readers are just being lazy. This really seems like a trivial matter to me. -[[User:Hiro Hayase|Hiro Hayase]] 16:47, 23, May 2011 (UCT)

Yeah well. Readers '''are''' lazing around, according to the elderly. LOL. But seriously, ''as a reader'' I would prefer having the translation notes at the bottom of the page rather than opening a new page. It might be lazy but it is ''faster'' in loading/navigation. If it's a problem of too much trouble I'd be happy to do it for you guys. I just think making a '''whole''' new/separate page for those notes is ''wasteful''. "A new page + data" takes more space than simply "data at the bottom of an already existing page". [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 21:36, 23 May 2011 (UCT)

Well, it might be useful when you transform it unto a PDF format. Speaking of PDF, can someone go edit V2? [[User:Kira0802|きら]] 23:06, 23 May 2011 (UCT)

I can edit HnA volume 2 since I have nothing else to do atm Kira0802. Here's my opinion as a reader: just leave it as it is, this is such a trivial matter. If the reader wants such high-quality material, then they could learn the language and simply buy the light novels. Also, note that some translators do not bother making said these references at all, whether its the translation notes or foot notes at the bottom.  -[[User:Hiro Hayase|Hiro Hayase]] 00:10, 24, May 2011 (UCT)

Sorry, but learning the language takes years of hard work. Plus not every country has access to places that actually sell the light novels. The reason people come to online light novel, manga and anime sites is ''because'' they '''don't want''' to wait. But even if it does seem like a trivial thing, there are benefits to it:

# People won't have to wait for a whole new page to load. (Not everyone has high speed DSL.)
# Navigating back and forth between translation notes and text is easier. (See next point for reason)
# Internal links are automatically generated when using '''ref''' tag making it easier for the translator while writing.
# Website space is conserved. (Size of New Page + Translation Notes > Size of Translation notes on an ''already existing page'')

I'd be happy if you can give me points that can legitimately favor leaving the translation notes on a separate page. If it's just because of the trouble of doing the work I said I can do it. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 14:29, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Instead of worrying about the convenience of foot notes vs translation notes, editing takes priority. There are still a number of HnA volumes and chapters that still needs editing and proofreading. That should be your first responsibility as an editor. Although if you still feel so strongly about this issue, then its best to take it to the forums. The translators and supervisors get the last say in regards to this issue. [[User:Hiro Hayase|Hiro Hayase]] 17:31, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Here's my suggestion. If you're so bothered by this, Zero, then we can make a short reference at the bottom. If you want a more detailed, then we'll use the TL note&ref. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] 18:07, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Let's look at the different points:

"1.  People won't have to wait for a whole new page to load. (Not everyone has high speed DSL.)" -> the page with the translation's note are only text, it's really small.

"2.  Navigating back and forth between translation notes and text is easier. (See next point for reason)" -> if it's '''well done''', you can easily go back and forth between the two. I know it's not the case right now but the editors should learn how to do it, it's not that hard.

"3.  Internal links are automatically generated when using '''ref''' tag making it easier for the translator while writing." -> it's not the translator's job but the editor's job.

"4.  Website space is conserved. (Size of New Page + Translation Notes > Size of Translation notes on an ''already existing page'')" -> who cares?

Anyway you can look at every BT projects and I'm almost sure that all of them put reference notes on a separate page and personally I like it this way. I don't want to see tl notes who pollute the bottom of the page of the translation. So if you want an argument then it's aesthetic, and I always privilege it. [[User:Vaelis|Vaelis]] 18:45, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

[[Sword Art Online]] doesn't and I think it looks good. But as to your counters:

# Even if the page is small it ''still'' takes time to load. Time which could be further shortened by using the ref tag. The ref tag ''exists'' for this reason.
# Why bother doing something the more complex way when you can do it the easier way. Oh... and there is no way to make a backlink to the referring text unless you actually make subsections in the chapters when using different pages for the translation notes (Something that will mess up the natural ordering of the chapter). But ref tagging allows '''not only''' to generate an automatic link ''to the note'' but a ''backlink'' to the referring text. Ref tagging is a legit and popular way to add reference notes, used in all wikias and wikipedia sites as well. This site seems to be a model of those and ref tags are here as well. So why not use it??? Furthermore it will allow for a more interactive experience. People can scroll down to the references and use the back link to check the referring text as they see fit. (ie: using the link for reference 1 but then catching sight of the next reference note 2 and using the backlink to check the referred text for ''that'' note. Not everyone just reads through the whole thing once, you know).
# Translation notes are the translator's job. But that's not even a valid point. So what if it was the editor's job. I'm not talking about external links here like names like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan Genghis Khan], I'm talking mainly about the translation notes that should normally appear at the bottom of the page for easy referral and its links <nowiki>[1] [2] [3]</nowiki>. I'm saying ref tagging makes not only the translator but the editor's job easier by taking the linking job off their hands. So why not use it? Plus the <nowiki>[1] [2] [3]</nowiki> are quite obviously a mimicry of the referral system. That's how the referral links are shown.
# "Who cares" is definitely not a valid argument. Isn't it always better to strive for advancement? Such terms only seek to arrest making something better. Why not just open your mind to the possibilities rather than closing it. I do have good and valid points. Don't shoot them down with such terms, it sounds wrong.

Finally I apologize if any of my earlier comments seemed like an attack. That was not my intention. I only wished for something that actually allows for an improvement to the current system. Well mainly it is the backlinking. But it also is true that it saves website space, is that not a good thing? Saving space means more data can be saved, no? Well basically we will only be the space of the page container that will be reduced but every little bit helps, does it not? And complex coding can be avoided, is that not better? All one has to do is write so: <nowiki><ref>Enter translation note here</ref></nowiki> where the text that should refer is; instead of writing the external link <nowiki>[http://www.baka-tsuki.com/???]</nowiki> and then writing the translation notes in the page it refers to. Give it a thought, which process is more complex??? Also I don't thing any two humans have the exact same aesthetic sense. Why not think about the benefits of the ref system. And tell me of the benefits of the current system. I'm sure there must be some. I always concede when there are more benefits for using another system. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 23:04, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Also there is one more point I'd like to make, though I'm not 100% sure about it. I think that the ref system is properly transferred during the use of template insertions like compiling into Full Text pages. I'm sure that problem was addressed during the development of the ref system. Though we might have to run some tests to make sure. But hey, it will solve the problem in the full text version's references if I'm right, right? Though I would like to point out that I not 100% sure about it. Maybe 85%. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 23:11, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Okay I just checked SAO's [[Sword_Art_Online:Volume_4]] page, the references '''do''' transfer seamlessly. That's point 5 for the ref system (100% sure now). Come on I'm sure there must be some positive points for letting the current system stay. No system is without benefits. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 23:20, 24 May 2011 (UCT)



Hummmm....It starts to become a bit heated. So I recommend you to post it in the forums. Of course, posting politely will be asked. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] 23:24, 24 May 2011 (UCT)

Yeah, you're right. I apologize for that. But you know. I'm not asking for a full change in the whole website. Just recommending a change in Hidan no Aria's pages. If everyone believes that there are valid reasons for the system to stay this way then that is fine with me as well. I just want to know the reasons and feel that they are valid enough. I proposed this system not because I like or dislike it but because I sincerely believe that the ref system is better than the current one. That's why I gave the four... oops five now, reasons that I felt were beneficial to everyone. All of my reasons are legit. They actually do help better the site. I'm not too familiar with forums though so, if you really do want to take it there, it's fine so long as you provide a link for me. I just want this discussion to be resolved by professionally discussing the pros and cons of both systems. Not personal like or dislike. I'm fine with things being the way they are, I just need to be persuaded that there are better reasons for it to stay like this. That's all. It's just that no one is actually bringing forth any pros for the current system so far. There must be some if people prefer it, right? But I won't take reasons like "It's too much hard work or bothersome to change things now." I've already said I'm willing to do ''all'' the work if the ref system is implemented (I'm a ''really'' hard worker). Also ''one'' reason such as it won't look good is not enough. You have to have at least as many points as I do. (Tension breaker: If thou wishest to dissuade me, telleth me what advantages the current system hath. LOL.) [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 00:24, 25 May 2011 (UCT)


@Zero I think what some of them meant is that Editing takes priority, so can the editors fix the English first?

@Vaelis Well actually, I'm in the process of changing my projects from Translator's Notes page to using "ref"s. All my new translations use "ref"s. ^_^

Just to share my experiences, initially I didn't like it because I have less control on the formatting. I used to use a separate page and provide back links to navigate back to the page the reader was on. But I found that the back links will work wrongly on the FULL TEXT version. Of course, I can use some programming tricks and some of the new wiki's extensions to overcome this maybe, but using "references" solve this problem easily, since I put my "Translator's Notes header" and <nowiki><references/></nowiki> under <nowiki><noinclude></noinclude></nowiki> at the footer. The FULL TEXT version will then not have reincludes of the "References", and I can just add the <nowiki><references/></nowiki> at the bottom of the FULL TEXT page easily. The backlinks are generated automatically. Another trivial advantage is that I can use the "name" id to share the same reference across a page (though normally I don't do that). Oh yeah, when I read using my tablet over a intermittent 3G connection, I'd prefer not to open a separate page. But the key issue I wanted to solve is the problem of lacking seamless backlinks from the notes. You can check out [[Itsuka Tenma no Kuro Usagi#itsuten_v1|Itsuten Volume 1]] or [[Densetsu no Yūsha no Densetsu#daiden vol1|Daiden Volume 1]] on how I utilized it. ^_^ --[[User:Larethian|larethian]] 01:27, 25 May 2011 (UCT)

I agree editing takes priority. I am working side by side the posted translation to fix spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors. I even put in many of the external links that others miss. I'm saying I can do both jobs. That's just how much of a hard worker I am. And yeah. I had seen the backlink problem in the full text version. It comes due to having two reference lists, one the full pages own generated one, the second from the chapter pages themselves. I had already known that the '''noinclude''' tag makes sure that the text encapsulated is not shown when the page is encapsulated in another using <nowiki>{{Insert page name here}}</nowiki>. So I had thought that that would solve the problem. I actually have a long history of wikipedia and wiki editing spanning 5 years, and templates are my expertise. I'm glad there is someone in my support. Thanks. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 11:36, 25 May 2011 (UCT)

I leave it to the editors, but unless I take the time to figure out this wiki works, (I'm not,) I'm going to continue to use off-page references. Actually, to tell the truth, your attitude makes me want to stab my eyeballs out. Not for any particular reason. Don't feel obliged to care, either. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 09:05, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

Now, now, I agree I have suggested more than a few changes, but I had zero, and I mean 0%, ill intentions. And using the ref tag is not that hard. It will make your job easier, Yoake. So don't be so stubborn and try to think of all the possibilities that this site has to offer. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 10:32, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

I don't particularly mind not having off-page notes, rather, I agree with you, I like how seamless the transition is between the note and the text. However, I can hardly say the same for how you're going about with this. You're saying that you're doing this for the betterment of the site and not your personal preference, which is full retard, because this kind of thing is completely personal and subjective. It's like trying to decide whether Monet's or Picasso's works are better. Personally, I think a five year old draws better than Picasso. Or, Hemingway and Tolkien. Personally, I think Hemingway writes like a five year old. What you're doing is trying to provide reasons as to ''why'' you think Hemingway writes like a five year old, and then blowing other's points as invalid or 'not a reason' because they're subjective when that's exactly what you're doing. Then, you say: "I'm a hard worker," as if Hiro doesn't do his fair share of editing. And, how the hell does it make my job easier? What? It makes it easier for me to understand Japanese? - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

Rather than editing two pages and switching between them you can add the translation note on the same page, at the reference line, seamlessly. That's how your job can become easier. By cutting down the time it takes for you to write the external link to the translation page, opening the page and then writing the translation note at it's place. These three steps are cut down to one <nowiki><ref>Insert Transation note here</ref></nowiki>. I never said anyone was not a hard worker. I merely mentioned myself and my intentions were not to belittle anyone. I never shot down any of the points except the one where the words ''"Who cares?"'' were mentioned. If I was really as you say I am I would not have bothered with this discussion, at all. Instead I did bother with it. The only reason I really mentioned being a hard worker was to remove one problem: ''"Who would be willing to spend time on changing things?"'' You must admit that is a reason that influences most changes. So by saying I will do it and telling just how much of a hard worker I am, I am preventing the following thoughts: ''"It's too troublesome." "I don't wanna do it." "It'll take too long."'' If it really was for my personal preference I would not have given such rational reasons for the change. Now, I would like for you to give me rational reasons as to why the current system is better than the reference system, which ''is used'' by some projects on this site. I'm an not adverse to having the current system, as long as you can actually give me some real points for it. And besides, it's not like I will suddenly start converting anything without approval. I don't see why you're being so hostile. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 16:16, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

You want to hear what might be a real point to Vaelis? "I like it." Do we need any other points? All your points are just things that you like, therefore, his point carries the exact same weight as all your points combined. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 17:08, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

What I'm trying to say is, rather than constructing this as a rational argument, which it's impossible to do so properly, it's a matter of personal preference. I mean, this decision mostly affects the readers, so the best thing to would be to ask them. Since you're good at wikis, is it possible to organize a poll or something in the front page? Rather, this is something that would be better measured with a majority, rather than points, which is a rather selfish way of doing things. It's simply not taking everyone's opinions into account, which is what something like this should do, rather than with rational points. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 17:48, 30 May 2011 (UCT)

But a poll without understanding the pros and cons of both systems just seems like a blind popularity contest to me (Example: A beauty contest with the girls hidden). Sorry, but my specialty in wikis is templates, what you're suggesting might involve bots and other complex mechanisms. I'm afraid I'm currently incapable of doing that. Even if it is my preference at least I did give pros for the reference system. Up until now, other than a small mention on the font style there has been absolutely no pros given forward for the current system despite my asking over and over (And I did ask over and over). Well, here's a compromise, how about putting this discussion on hold until all the translations are finished? It would give time to mull things over. I've seen giving a break to discussions helps clear up some things. Even I might change my mind. Or would you rather we keep on discussing? It does cut into translation/editing time doesn't it? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] 07:30, 31 May 2011 (UCT)

The thing is, this is supposed to be a popularity contest. In essence, this change is based on what people like, whether they like having an off-page reference, or <nowiki><ref></nowiki>. I'm not really translating regularly, as exams are coming up, and it's not like I'm working set hours, so it's not wasting my translation time, as such. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 16:27, 31 May 2011 (UCT)

True. But every popularity contest has to have the subjects displayed and their advantages and disadvantages noted. But nobody even bothers to point out any advantages to the current system. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User Talk:Zero2001]] - 14:07, 31 May 2011

Advantages: Translator can put whatever the hell she wants without inhibition XD. Doesn't mess up the aesthetics of the page, (for some.) Allows for additional information to be put where necessary. Makes it easier to keep track of. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 16:27, 31 May 2011 (UCT)

Nice debate. Well even if you do a poll I don't know if anyone will vote. You could just make a thread about this and stick a poll in there if you want. But, as a reader, I can clearly say that having refs on the same page is better. Honestly though, it makes nearly no difference whatsoever, majority of readers won't care too much either way. Since this is the case, whatever is more convenient for the translator should be used. I mean... this is baka-tsuki. You have minimal contact with your readers anyways, so just do what you want.--[[User:Blackfaia|Blackfaia]] 00:04, 12 June 2011 (UCT)