Editing Akiha even

すら and さえ are synonyms.

<pre>
黒人たちは白人のトイレに入ることすら許されなかった
Blacks could not even go into "white" lavatories.

私の祖母はもうろくしてしまい、私のことすら分からない
My grandmother is so senile she doesn't even know me.

私は極度の高所恐怖症なので、遊園地で観覧車に乗ることすらできない
I have extreme acrophobia, so riding the Ferris wheel at the amusement park is out of the question.

彼は英語を読むことすらできない, まして書くなどできるものではない
He can't even read English, much less write it.

これは初めての人（＝初心者・初学者）でさえ解ける簡単な問題です
This is an easy question even a beginner can answer.

彼は日曜でさえ働かねばならなかった
He had to work even on Sunday.

彼女は自分の名前を書くことさえできない
She can't even [so much as] write her own name.（☆前の方が普通）

風が激しい上に雨さえ降ってきた
It was windy, and besides [what is more, 話 on top of that, 書

恐怖のあまり悲鳴を上げることすらできなかった
I was so scared I could not even let out a scream.

彼は読み書きすらできない　
He can not so much as read and write.

神ですら泣く
Even the gods cry

エチケットの基本すらわきまえていないおとなが多すぎる
Too many grown-ups don't know even the basics of good manners.

友情すらも犠牲にして、ライルは仕事を得るためにロンにうそをついた
At the price of their friendship, Lyle lied to Ron to get the job.

標的がすばやく動いていたので、彼ですら命中させることができなかった
Even he couldn't hit the target since it was of foot so rapidly.

悲劇的なメロディーですらやはり美しいものだ。
Even a tragic melody is still beautiful.

彼女は僕が来ていることすら目に入ってなかったって認めましたよ。友達と大事な話をしてたんだ、って言ってましたけどね。
She admitted that she didn't even see me coming. She said that she was having an important conversation with her friend.

彼女は小さな赤ん坊を抱いたことすらありません。ましてオムツを替えたことなんて
She's never even held a tiny baby let alone changed a nappy.

彼女はそこにいる彼にあえて話し掛けようとはしなかった。見ることすらほとんどなかったのだ
She dared not speak to him there. She dared hardly look.

彼は酔っていたので、自分の家を見つけることすらできなかった
In his drunken state, he couldn't even find his own house.

彼は自分の名前を書くことすらできない
He cannot so much as write his own name.

彼は私にさよならを言うことすらしなかった
He did not so much as say goodbye to me.

彼は一人で電車に乗ることすらできない
He cannot so much as take the train by himself.

彼は、仕事を探しに行こうとすらしなかった。
He didn't even go out and look for a job.

太り過ぎて小指すら挙げられない
too bloated to lift even a little finger

戦争前ですら
even before the war

数千人もの市民が何らの罪なく、あるいは尋問すらないままに仮設の刑務所に拘束されている
Hundreds of civilians are being held in makeshift jails without being charged or even questioned.

人の迷惑すら顧みないで
even to the prejudice of others

時々教科書ですら……
Sometimes even the textbooks ...

私は自分の仕事がどのようにして＿年も続いたのか想像すらできない。
I can't imagine how my career has lasted __ years.

警官に尋問された時、その容疑者は黙りこくって名前すら言わなかった
When questioned by the police, the suspect clammed up and wouldn't even say his name.

関心を持っていることすらできない〔〜に〕
be unable even to feign interest in

科学的データはおろか、出生地などの情報すら公表されていないためです。
No scientific data or even information regarding the birthplace has been made public.

その計画は、筋が通ってすらいないようだ。
The plan doesn't even look reasonable.
</pre>

== すら discussion ==

akiha、前の「すら」について説明してありがとう。僕には「すら」が分かりにくいことですから、説明もしにくかったはずですね。今はちょって分かりますと思いますけど本当に分かりますか知りません。

akiha, thank you for explaining about "すら" earlier. "すら" is hard for me to understand, so I expect that explaining it must also have been hard. Right now I think I understand a little, but whether I really understand, I don't know.

The following sentences are the result of my current understanding of how "すら" is used. I have tried to focus on the phrase "にすら近い". I feel now that this is a figure of speech that cannot always be translated directly to English without having it sound strange. (前の文を日本語に訳すことは出来なかった…) (I was not capable of translating the preceding sentences into Japanese...)

次の文は自分が書いたから間違いがあるはずです。The following sentences were self-written, therefore there are most likely mistakes.
*「彼は友達にすらまだ知らせてない。」「友達をすら疑っているね。」 <br/>"He still hasn't told even his friends." "So he distrusts even his friends..."
*彼は虎にすらおびえない。勇敢な男。きゃああ…素敵わ！ （ごめんね…我慢できなかった。漫画読みすぎる） <br/>He isn't afraid, even of a tiger. He's a brave man. Kyaaa... he's like, so wonderful! (Sorry... I couldn't help myself. I read too much manga.)
*彼は赤ちゃんをすらおびえさせられない。全然恐くないね。 <br/>He can't scare even a baby. He's not the least bit scary.

「にすら近い」について。 Concerning "にすら近い"

(緑は変な色と思いましょう)
(Let's pretend that green is a strange color.)

*彼女は緑色にすら近い色の服がある。<br/>She has clothes in colors that are close even to green.<br/>She has clothes even in greenish colors. (same meaning, but sounds more natural)
*:(色んな色の服がある。緑色に近い色も)
*:(She has clothes in many colors. Even colors close to green.)
*この店には白にすら近い色の服がない。緑色だけ。<br/>In this store, there aren't any clothes in colors close to even white. Only green. (英語ではちょっと変な気がしている) (In English, it gives a little bit of a strange feeling.)
*:(衣料品店は色んな色の服が売られているべきのに、この店には売られていた服の色は緑色しかない。他の色に近い色がない。白に近い色もない)
*:(Even though a clothing store should sell many colors of clothes, the clothes this store sells are green only. There is nothing close to any other colors. Not even anything close to white.)
*この公園にはテレビにすら近いところがない。たぶん電話に近いところもない。<br/>In this park, there isn't anywhere with even a TV nearby. There probably isn't anywhere with a telephone nearby either. (これも、英語ではちょっと変) (This, too, is a little strange in English.)

グーグルで見つけた。 Found via google.
*自分だけの力で生きてきているような勘違いをしがちですが、今自分が此処にいるのは、ホントに、ホントに、多くの多くの人の気持ちに依っていることにふと気がつく時、恐怖にすら近い感情に襲われます。 ([http://akiaki.info/akiyama/tDiary/?date=200608 link]) <br/>One may prefer the fallacy of thinking that it is by your own power only that you have come into existence, but upon suddenly realizing that your existence right now is actually, actually, because of the feelings of many, many people, one is attacked with a feeling close to even terror.
*クルマとは、かくも奥深く魅力的な機械である。機械を超え、生き物にすら近い。多くの人がそれを被写体に選ぶのは、当然かもしれない。 ([http://enikkorclub.jp/preview/03take_photograph/index.htm link]) <br/>Cars are somehow (correct translation of "かくも"?) deeply fascinating machines. Beyond machinery, almost like a living being, even. That many people have chosen them as a subject for photography is only natural, I think.
*という理屈である。しかし、これは単なる統計的推論でしかなく、今となっては迷信にすら近い。 ([http://neta.ywcafe.net/000395.html link])<br/>That's the theory. However, this is merely statistical deduction only; currently it is close to even superstition. ("Currently, I would consider it to be almost superstition, even")
*優れたプロダクトデザインは、アートにすら近いような気がします。 ([http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4899770561 link]) <br/>Excellent product design has a feeling close to even art.
*動きは最新作にすら近い滑らかさ。 ([http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B000069S9D link]) <br/>Its smoothness of movement is close to that of even the newest games.

--[[User:The naming game|The naming game]] 09:07, 27 April 2007 (PDT)

I apologize for my late reply. I haven't noticed your reply for almost 3 weeks. I really should have added this page to my watchlist... What is worse is that I'm tired and sleepy now, so another long reply will be postponed until after I wake up. Again, I apologize for being selfish.

p.s. your second self-written sentence from above was AWESOME.

--[[User:Akiha|Akiha]] 22:03, 14 May 2007 (PDT)

As promised above, I'll now post my reply.

The your three self-written sentences about "すら" are very good, considering the content of themselves :D I can't spot any big mistake.

I checked collocations found via [http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&client=iceweasel-a&rls=org.debian%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=%22%E3%81%AB%E3%81%99%E3%82%89%E8%BF%91%E3%81%84%22&btnG=Search Google]. From my experience and the result of Google, "にすら近い" isn't used as geographical nearness or coloristic nearness. So your three self-written sentences about "にすら近い" are wrong in terms of the appropriate usage of it first of all. As the corresponding English sentences are a bit strange, the Japanese ones are strange too. I think you should had written sentences such as ones found via Google. The English sentences translated from Japanese web pages seem to be correct to me. But I'm not sure about the precious meaning of them... 

"にすら近い" sounds very cool, formal. It is comprised of "に近い" and "すら". Of course "すら" is used to emphasize the meaning of "に近い". Grammatically, "にすら近い" and "に近い" are interchangeable as shown in some of the following examples. Of course "に近い" has the distance and temporal meaning and the meaning of nearness of "degree". Somehow, when it elevates to "にすら近い", the meaning is limited to the nearness of "degree" one. Because I'm very rational, I don't want to repeat the same work done by someone else. So I omit a further explanation, besides I quoted valuable information created by professionals concerning this issue from my dictionaries. In case it is a big effort to read Japanese to you, I quoted only the "nearness of degree" part from articles of "近い". So the examples in it are useful by themselves. If you want a whole of them, let me know.

Therefore, I hope you understand "にすら近い" isn't a figure of speech, which you said in your previous reply, but a formal-sounding saying.

'''Quoted from dictionary'''
<pre>
【関係,程度】close; near.
近い親戚（せき）／a close [a near] relative.（☆closeの方が一般的）
彼の回復は奇跡に近かった／His recovery was almost a miracle.（☆a near miracleとは通例しない）
彼らがやろうとすることは不可能に近い／What they are attempting is almost [next to] impossible.（☆next toは通例否定語の前で用いる）
彼女のふるまいは狂気に近い（＝狂気と紙一重だ）／Her actions verge [border] on madness.

［程度］
near to O
…に近い, よく似た, 原物に近い|彼の考えは私のに近いものであった His thoughts were near to mine.
near
［通例限定］〈関係が〉近い, 密接な, 深い; 親しい|近い親戚 a near relative/完璧(ぺき)に近い near to perfection
close to O
…に近い《◆ near to よりも「近い」ことを表す》
ほとんど垂直に近いがけ an almost perpendicular cliff/彼女の収集癖はもはや狂気に近い Her passion for collecting approaches madness.


5 〔性質・内容・程度などの隔たりが少ない〕 be close [similar, allied, akin, tantamount] to…; border [verge] on….
紫に近い赤　a red verging on purple.
猿は人間に近い動物だ.　Monkeys closely resemble human beings.
・その仕事は完成に近い.　The work is nearing completion. ｜ The work is practically finished.
・完璧に近いできばえだ.　The workmanship is all but perfect.
・それは不可能に近い.　It is virtually impossible.
・ここは緯度が高いので夏は白夜に近い状態になる.　Due to the high latitude here, the summer nights are almost short enough to see the midnight sun.


◆きみの答えは正解に近い＜Your answer is nearly correct.＞
◆この書類の山からその1枚を見つけるなんて不可能に近い＜It is almost[next to] impossible to find the paper out of this pile.＞


・ダム建設の仕事は完成に近い. Construction of the dam is ┏nearly finished [《文》 nearing completion].
彼の助かったのは奇蹟に近い　His escape borders on the miraculous. (ちかい〔近い〕)
彼の歎願は脅迫に近い　His request amounts almost to a threat. (ちかい〔近い〕)
彼は詐欺に近い手段を用いる　He resorts to means bordering on fraud. 
◆Hiring a professional athlete for less than one million dollars a year is becoming nigh on impossible. プロの運動(競技)選手を年間 100万ドル未満で雇うのは不可能に近くなりつつある.

5 〈似ている〉 be like; resemble; 《文》 be akin to
¶彼の倹約は吝嗇(りんしょく)に近い. His frugality verges [borders] on stinginess.

クレジットカードなしで社会生活を送るのは不可能に近い。
It is nearly impossible to get along in society without credit cards.

ソニック・クルーザーは音速に近い速さで飛行でき、航行時間を大幅に短縮できると期待されていました。
The jet was expected to fly at almost the speed of sound, thereby dramatically reducing flight times.

哀れみの心は愛情に近い。
Pity is akin to love.

過去最高に近い水準まで上がる
hover at near-record levels

ほとんど透明に近い皮膚
near-translucent skin

ほぼ超人に近い能力
near-superhuman ability

ほぼ無重力に近い状態
near-zero gravity

モナコのような狭いサーキットでは他の車を追い抜くのは不可能に近い。
It will be near impossible to overtake other cars at a circuit as tight as Monaco.

州のガイドラインはほとんど義務に近いが、市のガイドラインは州ほど拘束力がない。
Although the state's guidelines are almost mandatory, the city's guidelines are not as binding as the state's.
</pre>

'''the interchangeable examples in the quotation.'''

I'm certain that the following pairs of examples are correct, normal Japanese sentences. Treat them as authoritative, trustful examples. I think other ones aren't interchangeable. While selecting appropriate examples, I noticed that this selection requires a very subtle criteria. It is a bit difficult to explain. If you want to know about it, please tell me. I'm so lazy that I omit the modification of the corresponding English sentences. For my educational purpose, I hope you write that...
*彼の回復は奇跡に近かった=His recovery was almost a miracle.
*彼の回復は奇跡にすら近かった

*彼らがやろうとすることは不可能に近い=What they are attempting is almost impossible.=What they are attempting is next to impossible.
*彼らがやろうとすることは不可能にすら近い

*彼女のふるまいは狂気に近い=狂気と紙一重だ=Her actions verge on madness.=Her actions border on madness.
*彼女のふるまいは狂気にすら近い

*彼女の収集癖はもはや狂気に近い=Her passion for collecting approaches madness.
*彼女の収集癖はもはや狂気にすら近い

*彼は詐欺に近い手段を用いる=He resorts to means bordering on fraud.
*彼は詐欺にすら近い手段を用いる

*彼の歎願は脅迫に近い=His request amounts almost to a threat.
*彼の歎願は脅迫にすら近い

*彼の倹約は吝嗇に近い.=His frugality verges on stinginess.=His frugality borders on stinginess.
*彼の倹約は吝嗇にすら近い

*ソニック・クルーザーは音速に近い速さで飛行でき、航行時間を大幅に短縮できると期待されていました。=The jet was expected to fly at almost the speed of sound, thereby dramatically reducing flight times.
*ソニック・クルーザーは音速にすら近い速さで飛行でき、航行時間を大幅に短縮できると期待されていました。

*哀れみの心は愛情に近い。=Pity is akin to love.
*哀れみの心は愛情にすら近い。

*過去最高に近い水準まで上がる=hover at near-record levels
*過去最高にすら近い水準まで上がる

*ほとんど透明に近い皮膚=near-translucent skin
*ほとんど透明にすら近い皮膚

*ほぼ超人に近い能力=near-superhuman ability
*ほぼ超人にすら近い能力

*ほぼ無重力に近い状態=near-zero gravity
*ほぼ無重力にすら近い状態

*州のガイドラインはほとんど義務に近いが、市のガイドラインは州ほど拘束力がない。=Although the state's guidelines are almost mandatory, the city's guidelines are not as binding as the state's.
*州のガイドラインはほとんど義務にすら近いが、市のガイドラインは州ほど拘束力がない。

===Japanese writing suggestions===
==== About "本当に分かりますか知りません" ====
; original sentence :本当に分かりますか知りません。
; grammatically correct one: 本当に分かるか知りません。
The "ですます" conversation isn't applied to clauses, but only to a whole sentence.
; traditionally used one : 本当に分かったか知りません。
Basically, verbs such as "know" , "understand" , "notice" is used as past form in Japanese even if they are used as present form in English in the same context.

==== About "かくも" ====
Later I'll post. please wait. sorry.

--[[User:Akiha|Akiha]] 15:37, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
@@ Line 278: / Line 278: @@
 --[[User:Akiha|Akiha]] 15:37, 15 May 2007 (PDT)
-:クルマとは、'''かくも'''奥深く魅力的な機械である。機械を超え、生き物にすら近い。多くの人がそれを被写体に選ぶのは、当然かもしれない。
-:Cars are '''very''' deeply fascinating machines. Beyond machinery, almost like a living being, even. That many people have chosen them as a subject for photography is only natural, I think.
-"かくも" is rarely used. And it is used in formal written language. Its meaning is a strong degree, I infer from my dictionaries.
-<pre>
-かくも【斯くも】
-¶友の零落を笑ったこの男の死に様はかくも哀れなものであった. This is how miserably the man died who had laughed at his friend's ruin.
-かくも【斯くも】 (kakumo)
-＝こんなに.
-なにゆえかくも悲しいのか.　Why so [thus] sad?
-こんなに (konnani)
-こんなにたくさんの　so many [much]; 《口》 this many [much]
-・こんなに高額の賠償金　such a large amount of compensation (money)
-・こんなに夜遅く　at this time of (the) night; at this late hour (of the night); this late (at night)
-・こんなに朝早く　at this hour of (the) morning; at this early hour (of the morning); this early (in the morning)
-・パソコンがこんなに普及していなかったころには　at a time when computers hadn't become so prevalent.
-こんなに少ない給料では生活できない.　I can't live on this kind of pay. ｜ It's impossible to live on such low wages.
-・昔の夏はこんなに暑くなかった.　Summer never used to be so hot.
-・山手線がこんなに遅れることは珍しい.　It is unusual for the Yamanote Line to be this late.
-・こんなにうまくいくとは思わなかった.　I didn't expect to succeed so well. ｜ I hadn't bargained for such success.
-・こんなにおいしいワイン, 今まで飲んだことがない.　I've never had so delicious a wine.
-・まあまあこんなに濡れて. 冷たかったでしょう.　Look at you, you're all wet. You must be cold.
-・こんなに忙しいと寝る間もない.　I'm so busy I don't even have time to sleep.
-・(症状が)こんなになるまでなぜ放っておいたんですか.　Why did you let the symptoms go for so long?
-・こんなにしてまであの遺跡を保存する必要があるのだろうか.　Is it really necessary to go to such lengths to preserve the ruins?
-</pre>
---[[User:Akiha|Akiha]] 08:04, 22 May 2007 (PDT)