Editing Talk:Hidan no Aria:Volume8 Chapter1

==Tamamo's Speech==

Might someone change Tamamo's style of speech to early modern English? - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 09:52, 17 September 2011 (CDT)

==Swear words==

Umm.  About the word ''F*%#''... if the Japanese word used does not exactly  mean the same thing... Can we use "Damn" or "Shit" instead. Especially  if the word used is ''Kuso'' or ''Chikusho''. The F-word is a little too  extreme unless the Japanese word used means exactly that.  [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  12:04, 21  June 2011 (UCT)

So...What would be the Japanese  equivalent to 'fuck'...It's in the copyright disclaimer anyways. It may  be true that there are some younger audiences reading this novel, but  Kinji says it about three times a volume, and contrast is good for  effect. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 12:23, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

The  Japanese exact equivalent to the f-word would be  "[http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Japanese Fakku!]". But with  the others there are ''other'' equivalent words as well. This is where  the person's personality comes in. Is Kinji a course and uncouth youth?  Does he use curse words in each and every sentence that comes out of his  mouth, regardless of who he talks with? No, no and definitely no. His  personality does not fit with that word. Hence, "Damn" or "Shit" is a  better choice. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  17:18, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

Please don't tell me what is a better choice. Anyone who might be pressured into a situation where they think they are going to die might let off a few choice expletives. At any rate, you act as if fuck and shit are on completely different levels of ribald when in fact, they are used in exactly the same way, an exclamation/an insult/an expletive. Telling someone that they're a little fuck isn't any better than telling them that they're a little shit. I am not going to change how I translate because you personally have a problem with the word. I normally don't swear. However, when I do, do I care whether I say fuck or shit? No, I do not. It is exactly the same thing in my mind, an expletive. Nobody weighs the situation and thinks: "Hmm, is this situation appropriate to say fuck in or should I be conservative and say shit?" As for character, if you asked me, I think that Kinji is a cynical bastard that thinks nothing of swearing and shooting at people to save his own life. The guy headbutted his friend in the face for trying to take a letter from him. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 17:59, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

F-Ranked words are worse than other insults like Shit, Damn, God Damn, etc (By F-Ranked words I mean words like F*%#, Mo$%^& F*%#er, Si$%^& F*%#er, etc). I must humbly say that while words like ''"kuso"'' and ''"chikuso"'' may mean either "shit" or "F*%#" but there are clear levels of insults and "F*%#" is a much higher insult than "shit". Even in TV shows they don't censor the word "shit" but they do censor any and all F-Ranked words. What does this tell you? That the levels are completely different. Kinji is a respectable butei. Therefore saying "Shit" fits with his character more than saying "F*%#" so many times in the space of a few minutes. On the other hand if the Light Novel actually uses the the Japanese word that clearly translates to an F-Ranked word then I would say to use that word freely (See the external link above). ''Please'', try to understand that I am not saying this out of spite. I am doing this to improve the quality of the translation. So basically everything comes down to two questions: Is the clear cut Japanese word for F*%# being used? If no then, does using F*%# so many times in the space fit with Kinji's character? From my point of view he is just a guy who has had a bad experience with girls, gets embarrassed so covers it up by head butting his friend whom he has a good enough relationship to do so, shoots people but adheres to the rule of not killing,thus honorable. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  20:53, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

All I see here is you nitpicking at some relatively unimportant factor, and like all your other nitpicking, it makes me grandly annoyed and angry. It is like you see one branch rotting on a tree in a forest and you tell me to replant the tree. In truth, it does not take so much effort to change four letters, yet the most tiny, insignificant, useless and unimportant things you choose to try and change. Why? This is obviously not because you think that Kinji is portrayed as out of character. I do not think that anyone (besides you,) truly believes that Kinji is the type of person who would never say 'fuck' even if he is surrounded by people who can kill him at any moment. You obviously just have some personal discomfort with the word and as such, you want to avoid it. I have a suggestion in those cases, stick to picture books. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 23:39, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

I did some research. It turns out that insults are divided into many categories: sexual, scatological (shit, and some would include ass(butt) as a scatological curse, not a sexual one), blasphemous, etc. Blasphemous insults take the number 1 position (no surprises there). But in English, the insulting words that have a sexual nature come in second. The reason for this is that Christianity regards Lust as one of the seven sins and this crossed over to the English language. Indeed many of the English words have their roots in Latin which is the native language of the Bible. Because of this crossing over, the majority of the English speakers generally regard sexual insults to be worse than others (some slightly others greatly), even if they have become widely used. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  01:36, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Furthermore, because English is not my mother tongue (although I am sadly more accomplished in it than my own mother tongue), I consulted with a native English speaker here in the UK (I'm studying here) and asked him if he were to be given a choice between "F*%#" and "shit" then which would he consider to be worse? He replied that he used both frequently but if he were to say then "F*%#" would be worse. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  01:36, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

And yes you are absolutely right. I do have a personal discomfort with the word "F*%#". My parents taught me to not exceed certain limits when speaking. But even so, ''yes even so,'' I said that if the japanese word for it was actually used, then I would have no problem (Author's choice supersedes my wishes). I do understand your point. I have looked at the [http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Japanese Japanese curse list] it says that "kuso" and "chikuso" can be translated to both. But since you think this is insignificant then it shouldn't really matter if "shit" is used instead. So I hereby humbly ask that "shit" be used. Since it makes no difference to you, it should be fine right? I beg and implore you not to trod over it without considering what I have said properly. To say that I am telling you to replant the tree here would mean telling you to erase everything you have done. I do not want that. Anyone can easily use the search and replace function to make the switches. It's more like grafting roses from different plants onto a single plant to produce a rose bush that blooms many different colored roses. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  01:36, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I did not even read your paragraphs on text. I am just fucking tired about having to fucking argue about the most fucking retarded (?) things about my translation. The word 'fuck' will never be used again, because Kinji curses in no other manner. I am going to take a break from translating. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 08:53, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I never thought of Talks as arguments. But the fact that you are just gonna ignore all my research and then blame it on me like this is not very nice. And you declaring that you are going to take a break now like this makes it seem like you're saying it's my fault. I will not agree to anyone blaming me for this. I did not do anything wrong. However thank you for saying that you will never use the word "F*%#" ever again even if you think Kinji curses in no other way. From the bottom of my heart I thank you for that. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  09:24, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I could not care less if you think it is not very nice. The fact remains that you are the sole reason I do not want to translate. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 10:04, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

So... I should keep my ideas just to myself simply because you might not find them to your liking? I'm sorry but that would be violating my right to free speech. No matter what, I have done no wrong. It is your decision to translate or not. But if you love doing it then no matter what I say, it should have no effect on it. Well the initial problem has been resolved, so I'll stop right here. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  10:59, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I did not say to stop sharing ideas. I just said that your ideas piss me off. I am in no position to stop you. Neither do I ever want to see anything you write ever again. It is a personal opinion, and like all things personal, it can be ignored. It is also my personal choice whether or not I translate for people like you. It is not as if I am translating for a publisher, in which case I would readily change my word choice to be more fitting for the target age group, but that is not it. In fact, I would not even have half the problem with this if you had just changed it without even telling me. I would just click 'diff' see the change, and not care. But then, you have to point out why you are right and why I am wrong and the entire hierarchy of expletives? I will tell this, your word is not law. You have no right to tell me I am wrong and I should use a different word because of what? Kinji's character? Do not make up some half-assed excuses because of your own personal preference, that is what irritates me the most. I do not think you even half-comprehend how much you irritate me. Were I given the choice, I would prefer for you to just stay the fuck away from Hidan no Aria and go edit something else. However, I do not have that liberty, very unfortunately. It is rare for me to hate someone on the internet like this, but the utmost sincerity in all your actions suggests to me that you are the same in real life. Well, since you seem to be very familiar with Japanese to the extent where you can tell me what curse words are appropriate, maybe you should just translate this yourself. If you do so, then I will not make pointless suggestions that do nothing but infuriate. Of course, I may do it just so you know how it feels when you spend hours a day doing something and someone tells you you are doing it wrong. What the fuck do you get out of this? WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU FUCKING WANT FROM ME. Please, just leave me the fuck alone and go edit somewhere else. ニコニコ. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 11:43, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I do not hate you. I have never hated you. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  12:45, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Fuck is okay. end of discussion [[User:Xenocross|Xenocross]] 12:47, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I'm sorry but I cannot agree that that word is okay unless the Light Novel uses the exact japanese word for it. Please see [http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Japanese this]. I have a right to speak my mind here. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  12:52, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

For me, I feel it's better than using damn or shit or other words. I feel that way when reading. Other words dont convey Kinji's emotion better. [[User:Xenocross|Xenocross]] 12:58, 22 June 2011 (UCT)
I do understand your feelings. Like you said the f-word would make the point harder. But I do not believe that harder is always better. That is why I proposed the change. The f-word is indeed considered more taboo. Translating from one language to another is always difficult because of all the equivalences. However, being a fluent English speaker. I cannot say that the f-word would match with Kinji's personality at all except in rare cases. Saying it multiple times in the space of one or two minutes is not okay. In such cases "shit" or "damn" is better suited to him. I'm saying that if the f-word is sparingly used then it is fine but using it multiple times like this just goes into a weird direction. Am I wrong? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  13:10, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I am saying that I loathe you. <br>"Chikusho: shit, fuck<br>Chikusho: This is the strongest word in Japanese. You might translate it as "Fuck!" Literally means...Beast<br>Many of these words translate like English obscenities. They're not, though. The Japanese aren't that shocked by feces, and words like chikusho have the strength of English words like "fuck," not the connotations." - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 13:01, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

:Hm if "Beast" is their strongest word why not just use it then? --[[User:Darklor|Darklor]] 18:32, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

:Beast is not an expletive in English, so it does not make sense. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 21:44, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Well I can not think that way. Japanese enforce politeness as a part of their culture (Yamato Nadeshiko) and daily life (office etiquette). Even if Chikusho is the worst thing that can be said in japanese I think we should honor their politeness and choose "shit" instead. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  13:13, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I mean their language even separates polite and non-polite speech. That doesn't happen unless the people are generally more oriented towards politeness. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  13:16, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

I do not care what you think. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 13:32, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Therein lies the problem. Yoake, we are a team. Supervisors, Translators and Editors all work together. Do not reject me completely. Use me. As I have learned from you, why not learn from me? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  13:55, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

The only problem is that you are here. The sooner you get out of my sight, the sooner all problems are solved. We are not a team. The only thing I have seen you do is make useless references and change punctuation marks to reduce page size. Only when the translation goes against your personal liking do you ever change it. You are completely, utterly useless. The only person I acknowledge as part of a team are the translators and editors that actually do their job. Even anonymous contributors are more helpful than you. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 14:06, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Thank you for being honest with me. I truly do respect your opinion of me. Yes it is true. All I have done is reduce the page size used, added references and changed a few things. My grasp over the Japanese language is only good in oral form and because of this I am little good in the actual translation (It also doesn't help that I cant get my hands on the Light Novels). You are absolutely right. I am useless. But you know, in both written and oral English, my skills are top notch (and that is why I say that Kinji's character is not that type). I discuss stuff because I do want to be helpful to you guys. You are free to hate me if you wish. But you have no right to throw me out of anywhere. Nor do I believe I have actually done anything to deserve it. At the very least I have not insulted you in any way. I merely showed you a different way to do things. Please calm down. I have never meant you any offense. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  14:21, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Off topic. End of discussion, 「チクショ」　will be translated as 'fuck', 「クソ」 will be translated as 'shit'. I will continue translating as soon as you say that you will never bother me with anything so insignificant ever again. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 14:26, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

Very well. As you said a few quotes ago, it wouldn't have blown out of proportion if I had changed things without discussing it ''Quote: In fact, I would not even have half the problem with this if you had  just changed it without even telling me. I would just click 'diff' see  the change, and not care. But then, you have to point out why you are  right and why I am wrong and the entire hierarchy of expletives? I will  tell this, your word is not law. 11:43, 22 June 2011 (UCT)'' The real reason I started this was to make sure that the word used in the LN was or not Fakku! which would have exactly translated into the f-word. If then I had changed it I would have been wrong. It seems it blew out of proportion. That is partially my fault. I will henceforth take care to never again bother you with it. I humbly apologize and beseech you to continue with your translation for the sake of the readers. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  14:37, 22 June 2011 (UCT)

"And that is why Kinji's character is not the type" He's like any normal highschool kid, not freaking Shirayuki...I daresay even you will be going fuck when surrounded on all sides by superhumans and demons out to kill you. Furthermore, unless you are Yakuza, a delinquent or some kind of DQN, the average Japanese give the same meaning for fuck in the appropriate situations for common swear words like kuso. So I absolutely do not see the problem at all.

And why the hell are you so hung up with the word fakku anyway? It's an english language import...It's not even the actual Japanese term for it.


About imports: All languages are descended from another or take things  from another. Examples: English takes many words of Latin, French, Old  Norse, etc languages. Urdu is a combination of Hindi, Persian and Arabic  with Arabic writing system. Japanese borrows many words as well as the  writing system of Chinese which does so from the Sintic language which  in turn does so from Sino-Tibetan languages. To say that already  borrowed words or imports are not part of the language is to deny this  very fact. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -   00:35, 23 June 2011 (UCT)

 
There's a major difference between something that's been integrated into language over millenia and something that is essentially urban slang taken direct from its parent language. It's like only the word fuck offends you whereas more explicit stuff like kintama or manko or more insulting things like ama don't. It smacks of double standards stemming from your unfamilarity with Japanese swear words and the degree of severity they attach to sexual insults which is not that great in their language as english and thus other more common words fill that void.  

No actually that's not true anymore. Oxford Dictionary has begun to incorporate slang and borrowed words into it's list of english words. I think you do know what [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Dictionary Oxford Dictionary] is don't you? The most widely recognized English dictionary of our time. Actually I've said before that insults of a sexual nature are the ones that offend. Truthfully, I find Yoake's translations to be some of the best out there. Probably the reason why I find so few errors. I found a small problem so I thought I might discuss it. I wanted to help but it kinda backfired. Anyway I've already apologized so can we drop this. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  09:17, 23 June 2011 (UCT)

I apologize for any and all trouble I caused. I shall try to ensure such a discussion does not happen again. Now can we please stop before something worse gets threatened. But no. I do not like using that term. It just feels like my mouth just got filled with the worst tasting slime ever. But then again that is my opinion, just as it being fine is your opinion. I would say shit even in the worst circumstances, really. But then again that is me. Since now the rate of translation can be affected if I actually tried to explain I will not. I beseech you not to continue this, since I have the fault of seriously pondering and trying to answer any questions put to me, regardless of others intent (sarcasm or otherwise). It is a fault I will henceforth seriously work on. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  00:35, 23 June 2011 (UCT)

Could those whom involved please delete these this whole page are pretty worthless in my opinion as a reader

Deleting this all is fine by me. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  20:04, 24 June 2011 (UCT)

:Keep the discussion in case another one wants to change the swear words! --[[User:Darklor|Darklor]] 03:43, 26 June 2011 (UCT)



Anyways, what the heck was that discussion for? Honestly, was this really useful? If there is an issue concerning censoring some words, then we could discuss of a convention or something like that. However, this should either be discussed in the forums (which is the best choice), or on a page apart. Not in the discussion of a chapter of HnA. Should we moved that discussion somewhere else? [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] 13:57, 6 July 2011 (UCT)

No. Thanks though. I don't want to slow the speed of translation just because of my ideas. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  16:53, 6 July 2011 (UCT)

==EU vs IU==
EU  vs IU, indeed EU was used before in translations of this novel, but  after some research editors concluded that IU is correct term, the name  IU  comes from historical signature of both japanese and german  submarines, japanese submarines were marked for example as : "I-31"  while german were marked with "U-12" (so called I-boats, and famous  U-boats), hence there's a historical reason why its IU not EU.  --[[User:Krytyk|Krytyk]] 12:40, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

Yes  that is completely true. EU was translated as such solely based upon its  pronunciation, which the readers may or may not care about. Either way,  it is up to the editors, I will just translate it the way I am told to  translate it. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 12:53, 21 June 2011  (UCT)

Why not simply like Yi.U? [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] 13:12, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

There's  no Yi pronunciation in Japanese. There's no point in making it Chinese,  we should make it have a Japanese pronunciation or a English  pronunciation. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 13:33, 21 June  2011 (UCT)

I don't know why but i sense irony from  kira's post, the point is, that japanese submarines had BIG ROMAN LETTER  "I" along with series number on the submarines body painted on. It's a  submarine's codename, it's like translating james bond's 007 to 008  >.>. --[[User:Krytyk|Krytyk]] 13:47, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

About  it being a roman character, I did not know that. I thought that they  were just designated as 伊－２３ or イ-23 or something. Well, I am going to  continue to not offer an opinion. - [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]]  14:07, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

Opinion exchanging is okaay,  don't drop out and continue to state your point in discussion, that's  what the "talk" is here for. I was adamant that it was EU before i had  the same discussion with some other wiki user about it and changed my  point of view afterwards ;). Take care of me in future;;  --[[User:Krytyk|Krytyk]] 14:56, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

You  misunderstand, I said that because I said this earlier: "Either way, it  is up to the editors, I will just translate it the way I am told to  translate it." Truthfully, I do not really care, it is the readers that  will benefit from this translation after all, not me. -  [[User:YoakeNoHikari|YoakeNoHikari]] 16:46, 21 June 2011 (UCT)

Ah, BTW, when I said Yi.U I meant something like 伊.U. Sorry if I sounded ironic. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] 14:00, 6 July 2011 (UCT)
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	For me, I feel it's better than using damn or shit or other words. I feel that way when reading. Other words dont convey Kinji's emotion better. [[User:Xenocross\|Xenocross]] 12:58, 22 June 2011 (UCT)		For me, I feel it's better than using damn or shit or other words. I feel that way when reading. Other words dont convey Kinji's emotion better. [[User:Xenocross\|Xenocross]] 12:58, 22 June 2011 (UCT)
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	I do understand your feelings. Like you said the f-word would make the point harder. But I do not believe that harder is always better. That is why I proposed the change. The f-word is indeed considered more taboo. Translating from one language to another is always difficult because of all the equivalences. However, being a fluent English speaker. I cannot say that the f-word would match with Kinji's personality at all except in rare cases. Saying it multiple times in the space of one or two minutes is not okay. In such cases "shit" or "damn" is better suited to him. I'm saying that if the f-word is sparingly used then it is fine but using it multiple times like this just goes into a weird direction. Am I wrong? [[User:Zero2001\|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001\|Talk]] - 13:10, 22 June 2011 (UCT)		I do understand your feelings. Like you said the f-word would make the point harder. But I do not believe that harder is always better. That is why I proposed the change. The f-word is indeed considered more taboo. Translating from one language to another is always difficult because of all the equivalences. However, being a fluent English speaker. I cannot say that the f-word would match with Kinji's personality at all except in rare cases. Saying it multiple times in the space of one or two minutes is not okay. In such cases "shit" or "damn" is better suited to him. I'm saying that if the f-word is sparingly used then it is fine but using it multiple times like this just goes into a weird direction. Am I wrong? [[User:Zero2001\|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001\|Talk]] - 13:10, 22 June 2011 (UCT)