Editing Talk:Rakuin no Monshou:Volume1 Prologue

"However, ever since the winter her once robust grandfather got injured, he had become bedridden."  I think that "injured" here is used incorrectly, as in the raw it just mentions that his health deteriorates 「ただ、壮健そのものであった祖父がある冬以来、身体を壊し、床に伏せるようになってしまった。」. -[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]]
* I translated 身体を壊し as 'injured (壊し) his body (身体)', but you're right that 身体 can also mean health. Considering the context, you're suggestion's better, so I'll use that.

Here's some more. "As the sky began to blend into the same colour as the surface," "surface" here probably should be replaced with "ground", as 地面 in 地面と同じ色 refers to the earth's surface or the ground. --[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]]
* 地面 literally means 'earth's surface', in this case either ground, land or surface can be used. I actually prefer land or surface.

This sentence, "If only father had the resolve to let me, on the bridal night, I would readily slice open the sleeping head of my husband to be!", sounds a bit awkward, so a better way to phrase this would be "If only father had the resolve to let me, on the bridal night, slice open the sleeping head of my husband to be, I would readily do so!" Also, I'm just going through the chapters one by one, proofreading some parts and editing others, so do you want me to keep post these suggestions on the discussion page? I'm already directly editing the more minor fixes. --[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]]
* Please keep posting these kind of suggestions here, because it looks like I do not always agree with them (no offense though), and I don't like reverting people's edits because that makes it look like I'm ungrateful or something. With the example above I think it's just a matter of wanting to translate the Japanese sentence order directly, or change it so that it sounds better in English. Your suggestion is similar to the Japanese sentence order, but it feels a bit strained (at least to me) in English. So I prefer my original translation. Another option might be "If only father had the resolve to let me, I would readily slice open the sleeping head of my husband to be on the bridal night!".
*Actually, disregard the suggestion I had. I probably wasn't really awake last night; on a closer examination, the sentence is grammatically correct. Whoopsie! But yeah, I like the second option more, since the "on the bridal night" part is in a weird position, and makes the sentence sound awkward. Placing it on the end makes it flow better. --[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]]


''Shaking their heads in frustration, some ended up being moved to tears and sorrow.'' --> ... in frustration, some of them ... or ...  in frustration. Some ended ...

* Suggestion 2 makes the first sentence faulty in my opinion. It shouldn't be split into two sentences. Changing 'some' into 'some of them' can be considered, but I don't see  what's wrong with using 'some' as a subject, unless it isn't clear from the context who 'some' refers to. I think it's clear though. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 09:59, 19 June 2013 (CDT)

* I knew the '.' will be changing the sentences, but I guessed you might want to normalize the phases as shown in ''Some of them snorted through their noses and''.... I too had thought of removing the ',' to make the sentence flow and more sensible. But, ok, i will leave it as it is. - [[User:Rukiabankai|Rukiabankai]] ([[User talk:Rukiabankai|talk]]) 08:59, 20 June 2013 (CDT)

''female Chief Theresia explained with as bitter a look as possible'' --> ... a look that's as bitter as possible ...

* I don't want to use "that's" too much, as I've learned it's better to omit it when possible. If it's the word sentence that seems awkward/confusing I'd rather opt for: "an as bitter look as possible" or "a look as bitter as possible". --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 09:59, 19 June 2013 (CDT)

* ok, i will leave it as it is. - [[User:Rukiabankai|Rukiabankai]] ([[User talk:Rukiabankai|talk]]) 08:59, 20 June 2013 (CDT)

What do you think? - [[User:Rukiabankai|Rukiabankai]] ([[User talk:Rukiabankai|talk]]) 05:34, 19 June 2013 (CDT)
* Could you please explain what you think is wrong with the translation? Don't worry, I'm not offended, but English is not my mother language so I don't always see what's wrong with my wording. Does it sound awkward, is the sentence confusing, grammatically correct, does it portray the wrong meaning, etc... --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 09:59, 19 June 2013 (CDT)

* I don't see anything wrong with the original translations either. First one is correct, as the "of them" can be omitted. Second one is also correct, so I don't see any point in changing that. In fact, the original flows a lot better when the "that's" is omitted. --[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]] ([[User talk:Kiydon|talk]]) 13:38, 19 June 2013 (CDT)

* I see. The TL knows best! I just felt that leaving out words will sometimes leave the readers a sense of loss ( as I was lost for awhile ). But, reading it through, I guess it is plausible. - [[User:Rukiabankai|Rukiabankai]] ([[User talk:Rukiabankai|talk]]) 08:59, 20 June 2013 (CDT)


'''Although Theresia herself would be accompanying the princess in order to look after her surroundings, of course ( even so ), for many people in Garbera, this would be ( their ) farewell''' Why even so? Sorry will not be able to give you solid explanations, but from what I can say, even if Theresia went with them, the people will still say their farewell. Also, was 'their' another omitted word?- [[User:Rukiabankai|Rukiabankai]] ([[User talk:Rukiabankai|talk]]) 09:12, 20 June 2013 (CDT)

*Uh, I'm not sure what you're saying for the even so part, since it's not actually on there. Also, "their" might or might not be an omitted word. The sentence can be read as "this would be farewell (for them)", which to me, flows a lot more naturally, as it leads directly into the next sentence.

:Also, I'm not sure that I agree with some of your edits. In "'It's outrageous that our Vileena, the third daughter of His Royal Highness and princess of Garbera, a country where we take pride in our chivalry, [have] to consent to a marriage with that monkey from Mephius!'", have is incorrect here. If you take out everything, you'll end up with "It's outrageous that our Vileena ... [has] to consent to a marriage with..."; Vileena is singular (has), not plural (have). For "Theresia softly laid her hand on that drawing [which] depicted her in a devilish manner", which is used incorrectly here, as you would either need a comma before it "Theresia softly laid her hand on that drawing, which depicted her in a devilish manner;", but there will be an odd space after the nonrestrictive clause, or replace it with a "that", which remains an essential part of the sentence. Sorry if that was wordy or confusing. --[[User:Kiydon|Kiydon]] ([[User talk:Kiydon|talk]]) 02:11, 21 June 2013 (CDT)

* I already changed 'have' back to 'has' for the above stated reason, but I just read this now. About 'even so': the word used in the raw is ''of course'' or ''naturally''. Basically, Theresia ''will'' accompany Vileena, but it is not so for the other people of Garbera. So naturally, they will have to say goodbye. I also think adding 'their' is not needed, and it's not in the original either (Japanese generally don't use pronouns if it can be understood from context). You can say farewell, or you can say your farewell(s), but I think the first flows better in this case. It sounds more definitive - which it is.

: About the the that > which - I didn't see anything wrong with the change at first, but now that I've read Kiydon's comment, I'll have to agree with him. I'm not entirely sure if I'm correct but: with 'which' you'll have to add a comma before it, and then the 'which' refers to the entire clause before it. Thus: the ''action'' of Theresia laying her hand on that drawing is what depicted her in a devilish manner. However, it's the drawing that depicted her as such, so 'that' sounds better in my opinion. However, as "that drawing that" may sound a bit awkward, I've changed it to "the drawing that". --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 05:07, 21 June 2013 (CDT)


''“Indeed,” female Chief Theresia explained with as bitter a look as possible.''  --> Sorry for editing before informing you. I was bothered by the wording on "female Chief" because her position didn't seem to reflect that of a Chief. I looked up the original usage, which was 侍女長. I believe Head maid(which i changed it to), or Chief attendant is more suited to describe her position. --[[User:Detalz|Detalz]]  00:22, 25 June 2013 (CDT)

* You're right. Head maid's better. I also removed the capital. Thanks for the edit. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 10:35, 25 June 2013 (CDT)


Phew...just finished reading the prologue in Japanese. How do you do it Dohma. And I love your choice of wording. They're much better than mine. Anyway, there are two parts of the text I wanted to confirm on. --[[User:Detalz|Detalz]] 02:00, 28 June 2013 (CDT)

'''Everyone who now met with the princess, although able to congratulate her on her marriage, couldn’t hide from the loneliness, the anger, and the sorrow on her face when they did.'''
Raw: いまや姫と顔を合わせる誰も彼もが、口では祝辞を述べつつも、寂しさや憤り、そして悲しみを表情から隠しきれずにいる
* I get the impression it's the soldiers/people seeing her off that are displaying the loneliness/resentment/sadness and not Vileena herself. I interpreted it as something like: "Even though they were supposed to send her off with a congratulations, they couldn't hide the loneliness, bitterness and sorrow from appearing on their own expressions." Correct me if i'm wrong.
* You're right it shouldn't be 'hide from the loneliness [..] on her face', but 'hide the loneliness [...] from their face'.


'''While it also resulted in a personality brusque enough to visit her grandfather like this, she had, somewhere in her way of thinking, been influenced by the out-dated, old-fashioned portion of her grandfather’s upbringing all this time.''' Raw: 性格的には「古い」父を嘆かせるほど先鋭的でありながら、考え方のどこかに前時代的な、いかにも古めかしい部分があるのはやはり祖父と長くいた影響でもあろうか。
* I'm not exactly sure where you got the first part about visiting the grandfather, unless we have different editions of the raws. It should be on pg. 22. I believe it translates to: "With a brusque enough personality to cause grief to her father, she had, somewhere along the line....." There was nothing about visiting the grandfather, or even about her dad preventing her from visiting him.
:* I agree with your translation. I think I translated 「古い」父を嘆かせる as 'let her grief for her old father', but with that being a bit confusing, turning it into 'visit her grandfather'. I remember having difficulties with this sentence because it sort of makes a pun with 古い; and thus assumed 「古い」父 and 祖父 referred to the same person. Your interpretation of the causative form of 嘆く→嘆かせる meaning 'to cause grief' (or literally 'let her old father grief') seems more correct. This still makes me wonder about the 古い-pun though. Does it mean her own father is 'old', and that it's just a way of discerning between 父 and 祖父 (which seems unneccesary to me), or that her father is old-fashioned - thus the irony here is that although her father is old-fashioned, she's been influenced by the old-fashioned part of her grandfather.
::Current suggestion: '''With a brusque enough personality to cause grief for her 'old-fashioned' father, she had, somewhere along the line, been influenced by the old-fashioned portion of her grandfather's upbringing all this time.''' - I'll leave it open for discussion for now.
::Sorry about the long rant btw. I tend to make my decision while I'm writing my replies, resulting in these long pieces of text. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 10:20, 28 June 2013 (CDT)
::*His use of 「古い」 is as a pun, to mean old-fashioned. That is, her father had follows the traditional way of thinking rather than adapting to the current times. This makes her father more strict, and someone who thinks more like a royal member of society, than someone open-minded. And don't worry about rants. I love 'em. It was mentioned slightly before in the prologue, though I can't blame you since it's been several months since you worked on it. For the revision I think 'old' is good enough for describing the father. You had already used 'old' once in the prologue, so I'm sure readers will get it. --[[User:Detalz|Detalz]] 17:49, 28 June 2013 (CDT)
Below are some suggestions for improving sentence flow. I also made a few minor edits. Feel free to use/change any at your own discretion. --[[User:Detalz|Detalz]]
*''In a range of gentle hills, there was a mansion overlooking a wide lake.'' -> In a range of gentle hills, a mansion stood over a wide lake,  or   a mansion stood atop a vast lake
:* I don't think a mansion can stand ''atop'' or ''over'' a lake... The impression I get is that the mansion stand's in the range of hills, and is looking out over the lake, thus the original translation. I like 'vast' better than 'wide' though, so I'll change that. Also changed mansion to palace by the way, due to chapter 4 indicating it's clearly more than a mansion.

*''From the bill to the tip of the tail'' -> I know 嚇 translates directly to bill, but how about changing bill to nose? I think that's the more common english term when referring to the frontal tip of a plane.  --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]]
:* I kept it as bill because I assumed the author did this intentionally - the airships are modeled after eagles.

*''The commander of the air defence force was already half into his forties'' -> was already well into his mid-forties
:* I like yours better. Changed it to 'already in his mid-forties'.  --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]]

*''Risen from his bed, although his features, exposed by the pale light, neared the limits of age, the grace and austerity that seemed to be there by nature was still going strong.''  --> Risen from his bed, his features, exposed by the pale light, neared the limits of age, but the grace and austerity that he seemed to naturally possess was still going strong.
:* I the 'naturally possess' part, but I still prefer to keep the although. The more 'awkward' part in my opinion seems to be 'risen from his bed' so I changed that to 'sitting up in bed'. --[[User:Dohma|Dohma]] ([[User talk:Dohma|talk]]) 10:20, 28 June 2013 (CDT)

== Grammar ==
'''Orginal'''

“Although, because you ended up one point away from victory, I suffered a heavy loss.” 

'''Suggested'''

“Since you ended up one point away from victory, I suffered a heavy loss.”

'''Reason'''
This is a sentence fragment because of the use of "because". I believe using the word "since" preserves the meaning of the context and is grammatic correct.