Editing Talk:Utsuro no Hako:Volume3 Round 1

So, do we use it (Kaichou) as a nickname or a title? The use of "the" should be unified in accordance to that, right now it is irritating. If we decide to use it as a nickname and it sounds strange without "the" in some cases, I suggest changing those into English.--[[User:Kadi|Kadi]] 11:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
:The best would be to change all occurrences into English, I think. But if there's no appropriate term I'd go for the title. [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 12:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I will change the Kaichou not used as an address to "the president" for now, although it may be slightly odd. When used as a form of address, I'll keep it for now, lacking a better alternative. As for alternatives: "Shindo-san", "Iroha(-san)" and "Prez'" come to mind, but I am not happy with either of them, for obvious reasons (not the title anymore/overly familiar => away from the original Japanese). Since you are the translator, it's your call, I'd say.

Or we keep Kaichou as form of address. It would work since you explained it at the beginning, and we keep "-san" and "calling by last name", too, so it shouldn't stand out too much.

By the way, it would be more convenient to discuss such matters in real-time... Is there any way? Maybe IRC?--[[User:Kadi|Kadi]] 14:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: Editing done, and I fear it is too much of "the president". I suggest changing at least some of them to "Iroha(-san)" or "Shindo(-san)". I can do that later, if you want me to and trust my judgment on it.--[[User:Kadi|Kadi]] 14:20, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
:I automatically think of *the* president, when reading "president" for some reason. :D How about "chairman" or something along these lines? Also, I'm usually online on #UtsuroNoHako@irc.rizon.net [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 14:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

'chairman' ('board chairman') might be 'rijichou' (理事長); 'seitokaichou' (if I remember correctly) is translated so consistently across various fictions as 'student council president' that it could be confusing/disorientating for a different form to be used.
Regarding name-substitution, I personally prefer for translations to as accurately as possible (with editor's notes explaining hard-to-translate parts as necessary) represent what the original text says, but understand that preferences differ.

(An exciting story development!  If all were allowed to know their classes and meet in the same room before anyone had died, they might be able to all willingly reveal their classes to narrow down who the King was while still at least somewhat committed to cooperation and stalling for time.  The timetable seems deliberately set up to prevent that, which is interesting given that it's known that at least two people are suspect afterwards (the King and the Sorcerer, if I understand correctly); ah, but the Double is also suspect if there's been Substitution, though that's fairly unlikely so early...  Interesting if 'not reading one's own class' could become a valid tactic in not earning the enmity of others.  Helpful if the Prince's tactic is passive.  Perhaps the means of death will be identifiable, to see whether the Knight or the Sorcery or the Revolutionary has killed someone...

There's the question of 'Who is 0 this time?' still.

Will the Prince know if the Sorcerer has tried to kill him?  The Sorcerer will know who the Prince is, and needn't worry about the Double as someone else might due to only killing who the King directs.

The '30 minute two-person conversation' might or might not be an information-flow limiting factor.  One person could meet with another, that person could pass on that information to the next...  but do you select the people by 'name' or by 'class'?  It would probably have to be by 'name', as otherwise one could find out others' classes by selecting them (unless that's a valid gameplay tactic--no, it can't be, or the King would just identify the Revolutionary and ), but without knowing the other's class it could be difficult to have a conversation more useful than the public one.  Are those conversations recorded as well as the public ones, I wonder?

Here's a problem:  how can the Prince possibly win?  The Prince needs the King, the Double and the Revolutionary to die.  These are the three people who have the power to decide whether people die or not.  Once two of them are killed, there's no way to kill the third.  Will the knife be used by the Prince to eventually try to kill someone in person?  Is the Prince inherently a doomed class, to prompt a desire to slip out in that person?

All the others can hypothetically win through buttons only.  Only the Prince is bound to kill someone with his or her own hands.  Interesting, perhaps?  *looks forward to seeing such either noticed and mentioned by the characters or discredited as a misunderstanding*  Very enjoyable!  *great happiness*)

It would be very interesting if Maria's the Prince and Kazuki's the Double... Then, it would be difficult for Maria to win, and Daiya (who is probably the king) can use Kazuki as a substitute which could make Maria accidently kills Kazuki.

I wonder:  is Maria able to kill people through buttons?  It's known that there's some reason that she's inherently unable to take violent action against others, but does that extend to all forms of indirect violence or only to direct physical violence?  If she's not able, then that would certainly simplify her position.
|
(*ponders the seeming difficulty of the King to succeed, compared to the Revolutionary, given the propensities of those who obey (or not) and the decisions of those who obey (or not) depending on class-knowledge or not...*)

*reads the update very happily*  Two triangles!  Assuming that Kazuki won't kill anyone, if I understand correctly the first victim could only come from the Revolutionary; if Maria were the Revolutionary, for instance, the entire game could be stymied at least until someone killed someone with a knife.  (I have a vague suspicion/hunch/wouldn't-it-be-interesting-if-that-were-so-impression that Maria might be the King, but...  hmm.)  Interesting regarding that the conversations aren't recorded and that the conversation partners are shown!  Curious that the meetings aren't listed in order of occurrence.  *wonders whether there's any secret significance*

i tried seeing what you sayd, and you know what i found out?
sorcerer is posted as fourth, so is kazuki hoshino in the meetings ==> 1+1= 2??? 
maybe it means that maria is revolutionary, daya is double and going on if it is as you sayd^^
(here is the list 
[Iroha Shindou]  ->  [Koudai Kamiuchi]  16:20~16:50  king
[Yuuri Yanagi]  ->  [Iroha Shindou]  15:40~16:10  prince
[Daiya Oomine]  ->  [Kazuki Hoshino]  15:40~16:10  double
[Kazuki Hoshino]  ->  [Maria Otonashi]  15:00~15:30  sorcerer
[Koudai Kamiuchi]  ->  [Yuuri Yanagi]  15:00~15:30  knight
[Maria Otonashi]  ->  [Daiya Oomine]  16:20~16:50  revolutionary
it should be something like this ^^)

Ah, I just realised that there are only three rounds in the table of contents.  Still, enough time for six people to die.  Even so, interesting to imagine how it might develop...  *still on a metaphorical seat-edge*

3 rounds 3 supermen and 3 men with various ability(one lucky one able to master boxes and the other don't remember)

*happiness at the update!*  A _good_ reason for them to be cautious in not revealing about Daiya's culpability, confirmation that Maria cannot kill even through buttons (though I've forgotten if it were ever explained why she has that limitation, though it's been explained that it exists:  a function of her box?), and the revelation of Maria's class.  No mention of the necessity of the Prince to kill someone else to win, nor of the potential of others killing others outside buttons (it occurs to me that, hypothetically, any of the players could win by with their own hands killing all the other players).  An interesting part about the ability to quickly give a (practically rehearsed?) reason for being unable to kill others.  With this, initial conferrence/conferrence is over.  From here on will be the start of things...  ah, and the inbetween Daiya-part:  I must remember to read it carefully for clues as to how the story will develop.  What of significance could/will be said (in either direction), I wonder...  *smiles*  *significant gratitude for the continuing translation*  [Sort-of edit:  Sorry, not that the Prince has to kill someone without buttons to win, but that someone has to die in a non-button-related manner for the Prince to win.  The means is not set in stone.  ...I wonder about food, whether food can be stolen...]

:I also wondered about food, but more like taking it from the players that are dead/zombie. It could prolong the game a little bit after all. Also, the sorcerer could just steal one portion of food (if nobody else does) and then wait for all other to die by becoming mummies (though zombies are cooler) since the sorcerers wining conditions are already meet. (The mummies are interesting though, when can you risk running into them?)
:Maria needs to be killed by all other players, except Kazuki which doesn't need to kill/be killed. Please don't go for the "I don't need to kill anyone, but if I doesn't Maria will die" problematic, it is too boring... (though the book wouldn't change no matter how much I beg...)
:It is also interesting to see how the type of killing aren't the same. Some just have death, while other have elimination and murder. For example, if the King becomes a mummy because he forgot to each food, then [Revolutionary] can't win because he died of natural causes and doesn't meet the wining condition of "'''murder''' of [King]".
:Just 3 persons need to die, what a wonderful game. But it is interesting how unbalanced this game is. [The Double] just needs to kill [Prince] and [Revolutionary] and he have won and there is no players left that needs to kill him. But the prince needs to kill 4 players. (if [knight] doesn't die, the game will continue and until either [prince] or [knight] dies, so he would have to kill him too.)
:Well, "First Day <D> Big room" will be interesting, there should be lots of hints to what type the other players are. (only 43% so far? will the big meeting room and dinner really be the next 57%, or does the rounds span over multiple days? (the way the headings are written could suggest this.))
:Btw, isn't there a good way to format this discussion? It is a bit difficult to see who wrote what...
:--[[User:Spiller|Spiller]] 20:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
::The conditions are met when the respective targets die. So even if some of them turned into mummies, the conditions would still be met; Or at least I think so. After all the [Revolutionary] would still 'become the king', even if the [king] starved and didn't die by his hands. Also, you'd better ignore the chapter titles - there were none in the original book to begin with. [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 00:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

who do you think the box is of? o thinks it is of the lucky boy(don't remember name)

It can be Kaichou's as well. Also, how did Daiya know what awaits them, whe he said lets play.

nah, i don't think it will be kaichou's but maybe of her friend or the lucky guy i'm sure it is of one of these 2

but her friend is dead...lucky guy is pretty obvious...that's why i doubt him. But the real mindfuck will be - maria is "0"

I think Yuuri was the Double, and Revolutionary was trying to kill the King, though there might be some reason for someone to kill her intentionally.

<glee>  The 'Yanagi' memories are intriguing.  The first thing that comes to mind is a near-repeat of the first volume's situation, but that's probably not the case.  Yuuri's actions before her death seem somewhat too suspicious, so I suspect that she might have been the Revolutionary and deliberately killed herself to sow suspicion (whether the box owner or 0 or some other reason).  Very exciting!  Because I'm now trying to guess the ending before it happens (a wonderful prerogative of a mystery novel ('of a mystery novel reader'?), I'll probably with second-guessing pass through almost all possible possibilities at some time or another.  <great appreciation of translation!>

yeah i am sure that she or kaichou are 0!!

FUCK YEAH! Round 1 competed.

Very exciting.  That the Prince can use [Murder] when the King is killed is a surprising datum which I couldn't see in the rules when I went back to look.  On that note, it's not explained why Hoshino had to [futilely] try to convince Maria, rather than just risking everything by fighting Daiya with a knife. | The most frown-inducing part:  "Therefore it's better he doesn't speculate that I'm the [King].".  It makes no sense that Hoshino would accept this, as _the Assassin in the proposed situation must know that Daiya is the King_.  If you're the Assassin and when you try to kill someone someone else dies by your means, you know that the remaining person must be either the King (or the Double?).  Either way, if you're the Revolutionary, you want to kill that person who can use [Murder] at that point immediately.  A conversation to try to mislead the Assassin into thinking that the substituted target cannot use [Murder] is futile, meaningless.  Unlike other things said, it's absurdity of such blatancy that it's nearly inconceivable to imagine that Hoshino would in fact be taken in by it. | Moving on, quite happy!  Interesting, in retrospect, the playing-out of the King being convinced to kill the Knight...  hmm, and Daiya can't have tried to convince the King that he was the King...  quite interesting to follow. | I'm surprised and complicatedly happy that my impression about the similarity to the first round has been borne out.  Perhaps I shouldn't be, as it might still be that no memories are lost.  In any case, the title of the fiction being what it is, it's almost certain that dead people will return to life instead of only being replaced by/with new players.  Will there be memory loss in future, either of all non-owner players or of all dead players?  Has Hoshino died before and lost his memories, though maybe having dim Yanagi-related memories?  Who might 0 be, and manipulating the situation in what way?  Whose actions are most uncharacteristic, will it be guessable?  I have no idea,and while wondering am for the moment content to allow the flow to take it where it will (aside from unbelievable things such as the suggestion that the Assassin wouldn't know for certain that a substituted person could use [Murder]), but continue to find the story very enjoyable!  *looks forward to the next round*

I'm a bit disappointed of the very end of this round. First of all, the "have to kill in order to save Maria" thing came up... (And yeah, what happened to the knife? If he didn't have the resolution to kill him face-to-face, then his statement was worthless..)
I'm also disappointed that nobody really died. Seriously, when people die, they ''die''. Don't even hospitalize them, just kill them completely okay? Anything else ruins the plot completely...
I didn't realize that this game was going to end this round. So I decided I would just read this part before thinking too deeply about the story, but then everything suddenly was over... what a bummer...
--[[User:Spiller|Spiller]] 20:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
:Firstly, would it fit to Kazuki's personality to use a knife? Secondly, would he have been able to win against Daiya in a 1vs1-fight? Also, who said they don't really die...? (Daiya, I know, but wait for the volume to be finished. ;) ) [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 22:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


Personality-fit:  one could ask the same about the willingness to use [Murder], it being a matter of commitment.  Ability to win:  that's a fairly good point.  Is there anything to suggest that Daiya has been taking martial arts or otherwise is particularly adept when it comes to physical things (e.g. sports)?  Notable may be that he's kept to using [Assassination], even prompting the King to use a knife (and succeeding) rather than himself acting (though there may have been a good thought-related reason for that, too).  |  The dying/not dying...  them actually dying would likely only make sense if, as suggested by one person, the 'Maria' Kazuki assumes will be there is in fact 0 or in some other sense not the real Maria.  Quite interesting if so.  Also interesting/shocking if Maria in fact permanently dies, despite the fiction's title.  ...speaking of which, 'Zero no Maria'...  in what way is Maria 0's...?  Ah, wonderful paranoia.  Somewhat blink-inducing if Maria does die more-or-less permanently and then Kazuki somehow resurrects her by using a new box.  ...and there's also the option of people seeming to die permanently cumulatively within the game box, but all being resurrected if the conditions of the game are cleared...  ahh, such delightful wonderings possible!  I look forward to further parts of the story, but will likely be unable to wait for it to end in wild guessing.  A large part of the enjoyment of this sort of story, as well, is the ability to speculate (with others?) about what will happen!  Ufufufufufufu.

Pressing the MURDER button is the easy way out. But what romantic is there with that? In the end all he did was to press a button. (A button with dramatic consequences, but still just a button.) If he could win against Daiya in a knife fight, I don't know. I don't get the feeling it would be impossible though. (Where is the excitement if there is no risk?) Still, there could be other ways to get rid of him, why give up just because Maria says no? Knock her unconscious and force her hand to make the order? (Might be a bit tricky to execute, but since it is him she might have dropped her guard.)
Or perhaps steal Daiyas food? It was confirmed that is was a valid move, but it didn't say it could only be done after a player dies. I can't remember the timetable for day 2, but for the first day dinner was after the second meeting in the big room, so Daiya could turn into a mummy before he would be able to assassinate Maria.
Or try to prevent Daiya to follow the timetable? It didn't say what would happen in that case as far as I remember though, but it probably wouldn't be anything good. How this should be done would be tricky though... Maybe knocking him unconscious while his guard was down because Kazuki didn't have his knife? (Yeah, I love knocking people down.)
Last idea and then I will stop. Not eating dinner and turning into a mummy and hoping the mummy will eat Daiya or something. The success rate would be low and pretty much last resort, but it might just work : P (win if he ended up eating Maria instead xD)

But if people really does die somehow, then I will be happy. But somehow I'm not too sure the author would kill people just like that... But I only think that way because of the first novel. The way the girl (I'm terrible at remembering names...) survived anyway kinda ridicules the reason for the whole event (but that is pretty fun too never the less).
But I will wait then before I criticize this further then. But if Yuuri survives and begins liking Kazuki and turns the whole thing into a harem, hell will arise...
Anyway, I like the concept that was touched in Umineko no naku koro ni, game pieces will not die, they are just placed back into the storage box, waiting to be placed in play again, but may not be used again and will just rot there for eternity. (Or something like that...)
--[[User:Spiller|Spiller]] 21:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

(I suspect that a 'mummy' is the original sense of a shrivelled-up inanimate corpse, rather than an undead monster.)  |  (Agreed regarding Umineko wonderfulness!)

:I just couldn't get this sentence out of my mind: «Okay thEn - I wiSh aLl oF you a - good fight! - Just dOn't end - the roUnd by - doing somEthing - as stUpid - as to tuRn - into muMmies everYone - okAy?».
:
:However I just noticed now, that it says "the round". Before I thought a round was one day or something like that, but I can see this is not the case. "round" is only mentioned three times. First is the chapter title ("Round 1"), then there is that sentence I just quoted above and the last one when Daiya talks about round 2. So just what would end by running into a mummie?
:--[[User:Spiller|Spiller]] 10:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
::Actually, "round" didn't even appear in the original novel. The chapters were created by me because we need chapter titles, Noitan talked originally about "game" and Daiya said "one time" if I remember right. [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 11:43, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

A largish question regarding Maria's death seems to have appeared and then disappeared; hopefully the questioner upon rereading realised that Daiya was the Assassin, not the King.  (The question about the Prince being able to use Murder after the King and Double die is still reasonable.)

or maybe only those who died in the last round will die permanently? or hopefully that maria is zero, so the real maria is still unharmed and is looking for a way to intercept the box from outside... yeah, i'm so naive ¬_¬

i think that those who lose every time and can't win at least once will die permanently, i think it makes sense

== Prince ==

Mikage silently added a skill to the Prince in volume 4. This new skill solves a logical error that appeared in this round.<br />
The skill wasn't written in volume 3, but I thought I'd add it here as well. [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 18:42, 2 July 2010 (UTC)