Talk:Umineko Volume 1: Chapter 0
Translation comments. Please discuss here or PM on animesuki, or email me if you're not happy so we can discuss and not have pointless edit wars.
甘ったるい means "too sweet" not sour. Sour would be 酸っぱい.
I made Kinzo speak very "classy" since he's old and speaks old-ish japanese. The clause inversions, formal words (glass instead of cup and others), and semi-colons are normal.
意味 means "meaning". Nanjo is saying that if Kinzo keeps drinking, it won't have any meaning to continue the treatment, not that it will lose effect; of course the medicine will lose effect, but what Nanjo is saying is that there won't be any use even pretending to try to heal Ginzo. It's a subtle difference.
Genji is asking confirmation politely. "quite" is appropriate in this sentence.
"liquor" is classier than "alcohol", and 酒 does not automatically mean "sake". "sake' in japan is 日本酒. 酒 can mean any alcoholic beverage. And japanese sake is never green.
心持ち薄めでな is a tricky sentence, but Kinzo is saying (mockingly) that he's weak of character and therefore can't resist the alcohol. He then says that Nanjo can "save face" if Genji gives him his drink, because then it makes true all of Nanjo's complaints. In short, Kinzo doesn't want the alcohol because he "feels" weak, it's because he can't resist it.
My apologizes for the rogue/brutal changes. I was actually gauging the various translations here and there. With your comments, many things were cleared, that's really a life saver.
As for the sake mention, yes indeed, I noticed that as well, and didn't exactly changed back to liquor early enough (see the history). I would hardly see Genji preparing sake with a green colourant XD Klashikari 06:59, 10 March 2008 (PDT)
About a specific expression: I'm wondering if "すまぬ" really means "forgive me/excuse me". Kinzo says this when Genji is serving him his glass of liquor. Hence, shouldn't it be rather "thanks" ? Since "suman" can be used as "(sorry for the trouble), thank you". Of course, this might match as well if he is adressing himself to Nanjo, as he is taking a glass. The thing is the term used looks rather the former choice than the later, well at least to me XD Klashikari 01:24, 12 March 2008 (PDT)
That looks right. I was thinking he was saying sorry to Nanjo for not listening to him again, but that makes more sense and flows better. Fixed.--Tobiast88 04:40, 12 March 2008 (PDT)
Good points there; although it can be tricky to determine the flow of text and dialogue before seeing how it plays out in the VN, in this particular case I think you're correct that Kinzo is saying "Thanks" to Genji, and not "Excuse me" to Nanjo. Further, immediately after that he makes a comment about the medicine not being as necessary, that the liquor is what keeps him alive. Since Kinzo wasn't already speaking to Nanjo (who isn't even on-screen during this line), then I think he's more speaking out loud about his love for booze. Therefore, I'll change "your medicine" to "the medicine". --Sonozaki Futagotachi 17:47, 12 March 2008 (PDT)
Ok, I just checked the Sonozaki Futagotachi's version and I can't seem to understand why they posted it: it is merely an attempt to edit a few parts of the current translation, to make it more "literary", mostly in ways that I don't think are necessary. Changing "stare" into "gaze" or "from" into "by" doesn't justify posting a "whole new script" and the heavily changed passages, I don't agree on. I also have a few objection on the original translation by Tobiast88.
To begin, you have the "また" of the beginning. Basically, Nanjo is observing the same thing happened the last time he examined Kinzo (and has probably always been happening): he tells Kinzo to stop drinking and Kinzo keeps drinking. "Mata" isn't a reproach, "not again"; it means "I'm going to repeat, again, what I've said before".
Then, the "書斎と呼ぶにはとても広い部屋". The fact that the room is "vast for a study" is subtle in japanese. The fact that it's "too vast" is an extrapolation.
Then: "使用人のように見えた" = someone who looks like a manservant. No mention is made of the way he is dressed, the fact that he looks like a manservant could be induced by his attitude as well.
Then: "肌蹴させていた男" why translate otoko as gentleman, out of the blue ? Using otoko so bluntly really doesn't give a charming, gentleman-like vibe.
Then: 薬の意味もなくなってしまう: the 'kusuri' echoes to the first mention above (the medicine is working) and it is my opinion that the word medicine needs to appear twice for the echo-effect to work. I really think this should be "薬の意味 - the meaning of the medicine".
Then: 見比べた means to compare, to look at one and then the other. Genji is looking once at Kinzo, once at Nanjo and then takes his decision to serve the liquor. There's no mention of "careful".
Then: …心も、そして魂も溶かしてしまうような、毒のある甘い匂いは、 主人の愛して止まないその毒々しい緑色の酒の匂いだったのだ。 The use of the word "匂い" twice in a sentence isn't just because Ryukichi07 is too lazy to find another way of saying it. It is a repetition, an echo used on purpose and shouldn't be extrapolated in "emanate", but used twice.
Then: 結局はグラスを煽る金蔵を見ながら言う means "while watching (...), he finally says ..." It introduces the next sentence; so a colon is justfied here.
Then: 死にはせん is a bit like "it's not like I'm going to die (just from that)". It should definitely be translated that way. There is no mention of "might".
Then: このチェスで例えましょう I would translate this as "Let us illustrate this with this chess game.
I suggest that the Futagotachi's version be removed from the page, since its modifications are minimal. I'd also like to add that if someone took MY translation of something, changed a few words (badly) and then posted it as their own, I would be quite angry and justifiably so. --Niemand 07:21, 22 March 2008 (PDT)
This is actually a rampant problem with several translators on the same text or so. I don't exactly believe the changes were done for the hell of it, considering what they actually have done for the onikakushi project. That is to say, that beta script was given to show if some tweeks were necessary or whatnot (not only for personal preferences sake, but also for space issue I believe).
I'm hardly on position to argue whichever is the best, hence why I submitted it below it, in case it was good or not. It would be better if all of you can discuss more in depth about the subtility or so. It will be troublesome, that is a given, though it would be quite preferable to see everyone's respective opinion, such like how Niemand did with the explanations.
For the moment, we will stick with the current translation (not the beta script submitted), but please feel free to debate more extensively or edit it completely. Klashikari 06:23, 23 March 2008 (PDT)
According to Niemand's comments, I'm changing a few words. But I have to agree with her: some of the changes I noticed on the Futagotachi version seemed to be just lexical, or interpretational; different translators will use different words, but the meaning stays intact (most of the time).--Tobiast88 07:33, 23 March 2008 (PDT)
Er... sorry about changing the translation too much. I did know, while I was editing the script, that I was changing the text into something that didn't match the original Japanese as literally as the original translation. I guess I'm just too used to adapting Shion's translations for Higurashi into English that "flows" better when read, or sounds more like natural English writing. I forgot that that's not was being asked of me for this project.
I'm not complaining; it would certainly take less time for me to just do the insertion of the text as it is (with maybe a bit of editing for space considerations), so I can devote more time to Higurashi. Just be sure to edit the chapters in the wiki for typos and grammar beforehand. --Sonozaki Futagotachi 10:45, 23 March 2008 (PDT)
