Editing Talk:Sword Art Online (section)

== What are we going to do with 16.5 in the full text version? ==

Eventually Volume 1 will be finished, and we will do what we always do with a finished volume: make a full text!! But we have this chapter 16.5 complicating the situation. Does it go in? Stay out? Make two versions (what I think is would be best)? Something else? Let's decide what's going to happen before the volumes done.


I say make a full text with reference to 16.5 but not actual text...or throw in a link to 16.5 with a dire "read at own disgretion" message.

-Ence

I think we should make 2 versions of it, SFW and NSFW... XD - RandomPasserBy

:Don't add it to the full text. I wouldn't even add it to the volume 1 overview nor to the "forward to.." box, to be honest. 16.5 may be canon, but it is not part of the book. As far as I know, he had this chapter only posted on his back-site without any reference on the front page. [[User:EusthEnoptEron|EusthEnoptEron]] 08:16, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

oh yeah, now that you mention it... the book can't possibly have this chapter...


Considering all the killing, explicit violence that the book has, its already at least 16+ or young adults.. can't rate something M just because of some cybersex.. -Irec

Wouldn't it be better to, at least, put a link in the full text to let those who want to read it in the good context be able to read it ?

I think a link with a warning would work.

Chapter 16 still links to 16.5... is this intentional or a a side-effect of the nav template? -[[User:Milki|milki]] 03:53, 18 February 2012 (CST)

I did not realise there was a chapter 16.5 at all before I came over this... And now that I've seen it, I agree that it shouldn't be put in the full text. What I'm wondering about, though, is if Reki Kawahara really wrote this himself, where it was published and how on earth it came to this site. Oh, and this chapter might be a little hard to notice if you go directly to the full text to read volume 1.

-

You know - this is pretty much under the carpet now, but I think this was handled pretty poorly. If 16.5 was not canon, it should have been put under the side stories with an R-18 warning. The author had it on his website with other stories that are up here, so the argument that he didn't write it is not a very good one. Age appropriate is not good either - R-18 warning as stated, but this site is not an all-ages site to begin with. You have R-18 visual novel projects, Type-Moon's numerous titles, etc. Some of the posts for removing it were downright confusing: "it left a bad taste in my mouth." Or "look at what people recognize me for." I'm sorry, but...what? You didn't like a chapter, so it should be erased from history? One is going to quit translation of this series because of the "infamy" of it? I know you aren't in this for public recognition, so why do you care about that? This massive double standard with sexual content is an American value style product that confuses me, but it shouldn't be influencing what goes up and comes down. We have titles on here that involve graphic descriptions of extreme violence, graphic descriptions of sexual content and innuendo, as well as images of nude people of all ages and violence against them to accompany them. I am really disappointed that management is going down this route, because it's only a matter of time before other titles get censored or screwed up because of this new standard. - somewhat disappointed and concerned long time reader. --Anonymous

:Sadly too true... :( --[[User:Darklor|Darklor]] ([[User talk:Darklor|talk]]) 01:10, 17 September 2012 (CDT)

...Now, what do you say we do with this? If you're going to tell us to restore it for the sake of the fans, save your letters. If you're targetting at me, fine, just say it to my face, no need to be discreet. I'm the bad guy here after all... 

And yeah, I'm losing my patience with dealing with this again...

Darklor...we should talk...--[[User:Teh Ping|Teh Ping]] ([[User talk:Teh Ping|talk]]) 01:30, 17 September 2012 (CDT)

In my opinion, this wouldn't be so much issue if the chapter wasn't included in volume 1 to begin with, it being up there caused confusion to many readers as they think it's actually in the published version, I was under that very impression for a while, until I had chance to check the JP book version.

@anon, it seemed you misunderstood the fact, author really wrote 16.5 and he really put it on his website, but he ''never'' put it along with the web version of Aincrad arc, he made a temporally R-18 section named 'Word Gear Reverse' and put 16.5 along with some R-18 stories written by someone else  there. So putting it in volume 1 section is a bad idea, and that's the reason I was strongly against it.

Currently BT has a vague stance about the mature content, there is no rule preventing the mature content to be hosted on wiki, but in forums, the rules clearly stated that posting mature content is not permitted. Maybe the higher ups could discuss about this double standard and come up with a single rules set for both wiki and forums.

On a side note: Why so many complaints about the removal of 16.5 but no one cares that ME1&3 can't be hosted here? Especially when ME1 is mentioned in both anime & published volumes. Just curious. -- [[User:BeginnerXP|BeginnerXP]] ([[User_talk:BeginnerXP|Talk]]) 08:33, 17 September 2012 (CDT)

Honestly, I don't want to shift the blame here nor try to explain myself since I suppose none of you would want to hear me out, so I'll take responsibility for this. Mature content '''can''' be posted on the wiki, but '''must''' be labelled with a warning, an R-18 tag. However, this is a different case for the forums, where no one is allowed to post such stuff. If you wonder why there is a different standard for the forums, it's because the rules for the forums were 'copied' from Animesuki...Personally, I don't believe there's a need to review it.

As for your last paragraph, Beginner, I think you would know the answer...--[[User:Teh Ping|Teh Ping]] ([[User talk:Teh Ping|talk]]) 21:31, 17 September 2012 (CDT)

I was not trying to shift blame, only point out the issues with said reasoning. I was particularly surprised that Ping said what he did because he always seemed opposed to removing content over anything that didn't involve content getting licensed or users making unjust profits. Like I said, I just thought it was handled poorly: it should have simply been moved to the side story section and given an R-18 warning. I did not know about other stories being removed, but if they have, I would of course recommend the same action. Removing R-18 content like this just creates needless problems involving content that BT shouldn't have to deal with. For example, it's really easy to argue that DxD or Campione should not be hosted because of their content based on this decision (there is not a single warning of R-18 content either.) It is not any of you guys' responsibility to be the parent for children lurking the internet, anyway. It had a warning when I read it last time, and when I came back to re-read SAO, it was gone completely. I do not have any thoughts about the forum; as it is separate from the Wiki, I do not think it is a problem to enforce a different set of rules. On a closing note, please take this less personally, Ping. I am not making you out to be a "bad person" or whatever strange thoughts you're having. I wanted my thoughts known, but I didn't want to clog up the forum seeing as it seemed to be a dead issue. While I would want any removed stories to be restored, the management and translators such as yourself are obviously the ones who have the final word. Restricting content because it doesn't appeal or seem appropriate to (x) audience is a dangerous direction to go for BT though, I feel. Take it easy and thanks for reading. --Anonymous

@Beginner, does ME 1 & 3 contain questionable content? All I know is that they are doujins, so might not belong in a LN wiki like BT. Maybe a link might be good instead of no content (which had me assume no work was done on it, up until recently), but thats up to the heads.

@Teh Ping, I respect you for your decision to take responsibility for the ire of readers on removing the chapter, though I think its not something you have to do (if it was made out of frustration and a wish for the topic to be dropped). Not sure what was the cause of the removal (I'm willing to listen if you have the time to chat),  I cannot help but feel those who complain so much about it, will not or can not see beyond wanting to have everything in one place for their convenience (the internet is a wide place after all). For those stating it affects BT, do realize that even novels on the market are constantly being revised and edited as they are reprinted, to fit the standards of the time. Removing one event which does not have much plot context (unlike the anime...) and is not even part of the published novel is not going to affect anything, and is a weak point for argument. Comparing other LNs to this is even weaker, considering those rarely even reach the level of content shown here (LNs get edited before release as well...) So do consider your argument on insisting you must be able to find it on BT.--[[User:Gabgrave|Gabgrave]] ([[User talk:Gabgrave|talk]]) 01:51, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

@Anon, While I don't read nor watch DxD & Campione, I know for sure that those 2 series are at most R-15 and still can be sold at normal channels in Japan, while 16.5 is in a completely different situation, it's clearly R-18 and will never be able to sell alongside other light novels even if it's published. It's fine if you compared 16.5 to our visual novel projects, but please give a legit example of R-18 light novel hosting here.

@Gabgrave, ME1&3 are manga written by author himself, their content are clean, and I particularly like ME1 too, you should be able to find them at some online manga reading sites. The reason we can't hosted them even though they're both completely scanslated now, is because of its nature, we don't host manga here unless the script is posted as well (like ME2). The reason is legit and I respect that decision, it's just funny that the removal of the questionable content caused so much stir within SAO community here, while 2 clean & good legit stories from the same author not being here didn't raise any question nor request.

@Beginner, Thanks for the description, I have the links and will be looking them up. I think why people are not commenting is because like me, they see the red links in the page, and assume they are not translated yet. Only if we happen across some comments that make us aware that they do exists already, then we start looking for it.--[[User:Gabgrave|Gabgrave]] ([[User talk:Gabgrave|talk]]) 02:25, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

Forgot to mention this earlier, Ence was the one who translated and posted 16.5 here, not Teh_Ping, please be careful and not spreading misinformation. -- [[User:BeginnerXP|BeginnerXP]] ([[User_talk:BeginnerXP|Talk]]) 03:12, 18 September 2012 (CDT)
My bad. Mistaken information received. Removed from post.--[[User:Gabgrave|Gabgrave]] ([[User talk:Gabgrave|talk]]) 03:23, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

Firstly, when I say trying to shift blame, I would refer to the guy who actually took down the page, Vaelis, the admin of the SAO project. On Baka Tsuki, each project can be removed by three groups of people. The translator of the work, the Supervisors, and the admins. Since we're going to be stuck here for a while, I'll break it down.

First, while I said that I didn't like having 16.5, I respect the fact that it was uploaded. That was why I never demanded for it to be deleted, even though I am vocal against those who wanted it on '''just to see that Kirito and Asuna have their relationship consummated''', which is a completely stupid excuse (note that I don't say reason here because there was nothing reasonable at all). When I posted '''in white''' that I would go unless it was removed, note that it was in jest. Do note that while I am against it being posted, I am neutral against it being removed because the damage had already been done. [http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=3128&start=2040 All the mess can be read from here until the next 5 pages or so] If you had seen my actions during the Volume 9 incident, you would have realized that if I wanted a page to be deleted, I would have just gone ahead to delete all the stuff way back when I joined this project (as a Supervisor), and how I nearly nuked the entire Accel World project here. Now, I really don't want Vaelis to be blamed for this, but he did delete it after reading through our arguments (on both parties). This is why I say that I will just take all the blame, because if I go on to explain, other people are just going to be implicated as well, (and I'm pretty much...the fall guy on Baka Tsuki at this point). If you're going to talk about how I had been whining about it affecting my rep, Gabgrave made the mistake I knew was coming from a mile away (before correcting it). No one is trying to be a 'parent' here, but I won't be elaborating on this part because I'm in class right now

And yes, I am very frustrated that we're still arguing over when it has been almost 3 months since this was 'resolved'. Unfortunately, I don't think there would be a proper conclusion in this case. The way we have been going on about this is as if some important story was omitted like how Kirito took on Heathcliff. If you say that it's important, understand this, it's not in the official printed LN. If you argue for the case of how the MEs and other stuff are all uploaded even though they're not in print media, again, bottom line is whether the three groups of people want it online.--[[User:Teh Ping|Teh Ping]] ([[User talk:Teh Ping|talk]]) 04:06, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

It seems like my point is being missed...removing content because it is "objectionable," is not something I think BT should do. It's not in the official printed LN, which is why I said it should be moved to side stories. I don't really care if it consummates their relationship or not (it's a harem where one girl is given the "I'm going to win regardless" before said chapter even happens, so...) There is no such thing as "damage done" if you ask me: if the author thought it was good enough to be on his site, I'm not going to judge it as some "garbage" or "painful to read" work of a fan. And while you, Gabgrave, may think DxD/Campione is not R-18, you would have an incredibly hard time persuading someone who was raised in a Western environment otherwise (I read all three of these titles, and they go pretty far, haha.) I'm not sure why anyone is getting upset over this, but I can't keep a rational topic going for long if I'm the only one trying to do so. I'll drop it with this. -- Anonymous

Sigh. Listen, if you really want to read it then you can always go to Tap-Trans. I'm not giving the link. Search for it yourself. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  18:56, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

Can't believe I actually registered an account just to respond to this message. Look, are you trying to guilt trip the other guys here, or are you just trying to get them to say sorry for removing and stuff? From the look of your first paragraph, it already showed that you were trying to blame someone for this, especially Teh Ping. I can understand why Ping wanted to hurry up and get over this because he has better things to do than to respond to someone like you who's digging up the past for your own sake. If you want to know where your beloved 16.5 went, just follow what Zero got to. Rational topic? How rational is it in the first place when you're talking about it, ''3 months after it was removed,'' when everyone is planning to just continue on, and how about talking about R-18 and stuff when your American standard doesn't match what the Japanese assume to be R-18? There's a reason why Campione and DxD are both published while this 16.5, even with Japan's lax standard for fanservice nowadays, failed to make the cut. Consider me grateful that it was taken down because it was such a huge distraction (Doesn't chapter 17 imply that they did it in the first place?). Now, if you're going to continue to post here regarding this, I think Teh Ping would be pissed that he has to be the one arguing with you instead of working on volume 10 of SAO (I can only remain patient as a reader).--[[User:Wertmog|Wertmog]] ([[User talk:Wertmog|talk]]) 21:38, 18 September 2012 (CDT)

I'm honestly kind of impressed. Like, why do either of you visit this site? Apparently neither of you can read at all! I do not care about too much about 16.5. It is easy to find and it does not add much, if anything, to the story. I care about the fact that '''IT WAS CONSIDERED SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE UPLOADED AND LATER REMOVED BECAUSE OF OBJECTIONABLE CONTENT.''' There is nothing about guilt trips and I have no idea why people like you have to make things personal despite my repeated assurances that I was not. The entire point of me bringing up standards is because '''THERE ARE NO SUCH STANDARDS.''' What is considered obscene in Japan is not considered obscene in the US, and the opposite is often true as well. When you do things like this, you create a standard. And creating this particular standard jeopardizes other projects in the future because declaring what content is appropriate is a ''very'' slippery slope. There is nothing to argue about; this is simply how things work. That concerns me and I would rather say "this looks dangerous" instead of standing by and waiting for things to play out. I'm glad Ping cares enough to read and respond to my concerns, but it seems like he simply assumed I was complaining about how 16.5 is gone and nothing more. I don't want to assign "blame" or else I would be quite frank about it (as I am with you two.) I don't consider it his responsibility that the chapter was taken down, but BT's as a whole. Furthermore, Ping is free to do whatever he pleases; I doubt he considers "arguing" with me a priority when choosing between the browsing the internet, translating, and whatever other recreational stuff he does. So take your flame baits somewhere else. Or don't, I said I would drop this, and now I will. I voiced my concerns and what's done is done. If someone can't handle me having the last word, insult me or tell me how wrong I am... or let the issue die. Regardless, I wish the best to Ping and those involved with translating, as well as those who bothered to think about my concerns in a logical manner. --Anonymous

Blablabla, immature question about intelligence of others, denial of topic at hand DESPITE this page and topic being what it is, then bringing up standards instead of in the... well, it's not that hard to make a new thread on forum, saying that there are no standards despite there being one, even if it is not recognized by you, stating the obvious "this is simply how things work", ignores the fact that there were loads of people on BT arguing against removal, even if they lost, stating once again that will drop despite seeing the same words in the previous one, I cann't stand you having the last word(I'm immature like that), your concerns are logical(so are the concerns of those who removed it. Did YOU think about that?) but your arguments are not. ~~ Just as Anon

Umm... Could you stop using caps with bold? Personally I get what you're saying. I was against it's removal too, precisely because I didn't want to risk any more removals. But at the same time I understood their point of view as well. Therefore, if you want to read it then search out Tap-Trans (it's not like it's ''gone'' gone, just think it's re-located). That's all. Deal with it. It's not the end of the world. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  06:15, 19 September 2012 (CDT)