Editing Talk:Sword Art Online (section)

== Replacement of nav table with nav template ==

I would hence like to propose that we replace the current (and if I may say, extremely limited capability carrying) nav table system:

ie:
{| border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; border-collapse: collapse;"
|-
| Back to [[Sword Art Online:Volume 2 Chapter 3|Chapter 3]]
| Return to [[Sword Art Online|Main Page]]
| Forward to [[Sword Art Online:Volume 2 Chapter 4 Part 2|Part 2]]
|-
|}

with the new [[Template:SAO Nav|SAO Nav Template]].

ie: {{SAO Nav|prev=Sword Art Online:Volume 2 Chapter 3|next=Sword Art Online:Volume 2 Chapter 4 Part 2}}

which is becoming popular and has more capabilities/advantages.

Advantages of the new system:
#We can decrease the overall page storage size. (No need to write long code, just the call code will be enough, take a look of this section in edit mode to get the picture.)
#Have a call code that is easier to:
##memorize
##recall
##and write. (Again, see in edit mode if you still don't understand)
#Have page jumping ability to any page in the series regardless of where we currently are, thus speeding up page navigation in case of checking previous or future facts for comparison.
#Can make changes to template page itself and have the navs on the pages immediately mirror the changes. (Reduction of data redundancy and error, ie: you wont have to go through all the pages and change every single one just editing the template page will be enough).
#Template's next and prev links are generic so they can be used for both volume and chapter pages without problems, ie: uniform system.
#Collapsibility ensures that size is compact and acceptable, for jumping one just needs to expand it by clicking the [show] link.
#Page center aligned. (Not really important, it looks better than right aligning it, still... minor point)

This template was previously fully implemented but then removed due to some issues. All those in favor or against please respond. If you wish any improvements to the template then please suggest them on the [[Template Talk:SAO Nav]] page. I will address them as best as I can. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 14:25, 11 December 2011 (CST)

Hey hey. If there is no one against it then it is fine to implement it, right? I mean the advantages listed above show that it is more beneficial to implement. And no one having any points against it kinda also suggests the same. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 07:34, 28 December 2011 (CST)

I'm against it and I already implemented a nav bar with most of the advantages you mentioned. I put it in volume 1 and will do the other volume soon.
[[User:Vaelis|Vaelis]] 08:47, 28 December 2011 (CST)

Hmm so you are using this:
{{Nav|Sword Art Online:Volume 1 Chapter 1|{{SAO List v1a}}|Sword Art Online}}

Page jumping is still not implemented. That is the main functionality of my proposed template. And you say that you are against it? May I ask why? Please explain in detail. I say that there is a great advantage in implementing it because it will allow both users and translators to jump between pages.
*Translators will be able to navigate between their different chapters more easily and create new chapters with just a click. ''(Plus since the chapter page names will be decided beforehand there won't be a chance of page name inconsistency that often happens.)''
*Furthermore, users will be able to navigate more easily as well ''(in the case of dead ends as well as to check a previous chapter for a related fact, or to skip a volume while re-reading, people do that you know)''. 

If I recall previously you mentioned that you didn't like how the template ''looks'' like, is that correct? I must tell you that Infinite Stratos, Itsuka Tenma, Toaru, BakaTest, Chrome Shelled Regios, Dantalian no Shoka have all implemented and started making use of similar templates. I'm only trying to do what is best for this project. Please support me. I assure you that you won't regret it. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 17:26, 28 December 2011 (CST)

On the opposite side the template Vaelis has implemented is rather interesting. Hmm it has properly addressed the problem of repetition, excessive space wastage, as well as the non-user-friendly coding. Particularly that is automatically generating the links. Very interesting. I'll examine it thoroughly. Maybe I can implement that in my templates somehow. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 17:28, 28 December 2011 (CST)

Hey hey. We need more participants in this discussion. Please tell us which template you think has more functionalities. User feedback is essential. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 17:37, 28 December 2011 (CST)

I don't know about other people, but all I need is the link back to Main. The Back and Next is nice extra. For reading, I mainly use my other comp that is not logged on, so I can read cached stuff which is faster. If people don't already know, if you sign in with a name while reading, you get served fresh pages every time, anon people get faster cached pages. [[User:Xplorer30|Xplorer30]] - [[User_talk:Xplorer30|Talk]] 20:24, 28 December 2011 (CST)

- Personally, I don't really care as long as "forward" "main page" are included, since I simply tap backspace to get back, though I must say it'd look ugly without the "back button". Also, jumping through halyard from a volume to another volume is, I must say, unuseful in my case. However, I find the nav bar pretty good-looking, which is the reason why I wasn't fully opposed back then, even if I was sceptical about it. Personally, if the bar could simply keep the back/forward buttons, the main page buttons, it'd be fine, though I would like the chapter names indicated on th next/previous button. Also, I feel more concerned about these huge references tag that take too much space in the text than the nav bar... [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] ([[User_talk:Kira0802|Talk]]) 21:09, 28 December 2011 (CST)

I agree with Kira. Note this isn't about SAO directly but rather about this type of navbar as a whole. If I really want to jump chapters/volumes, I really won't care about 2 clicks instead of 1 (Main -> the chapter I want). Actually, I don't even use the Main button much, just the Forward one. I can't recall ever using the Back button. 

For me I'm fine whether or not the chapter name is included, because when just reading I don't care what the name of the next chapter is, I can just click Forward to get to it, and when I'm editing stuff I use the Main Page as a portal (it'd be open in a tab by itself) and the chapter names are available there.

In fact, I've even created a group of navs that have most of the advantages you state and maintains the simplicity of the Nav template, but is in my opinion better than the generic Nav template, in that it is specialized for each novel, so if it needs to be changed for some specific novel it can be done without affecting any of the other novels. They can be found [[:Category:Simple_Navbars|here]]. It would be nice if there is some kind of standard that could be decided, for the moment anyways. By the way, I'm starting to think this doesn't fit in the SAO talk anymore and maybe should have a forum topic.. --[[User:Jonathanasdf|jonathanasdf]] 21:43, 28 December 2011 (CST)

Hmm, interesting points, I'll try and explain my reasoning below:

*You guys might say that you don't care but you must admit that it is much easier to navigate if it is a one step method (chapter A -> chapter B) rather than a two step method (Chapter A -> Main Page -> Chapter B). While you may say you might not care, page jumping can help speed up navigation for those who reach dead ends or are translating multiple chapters at the same time. Plus the Next, Previous and Main Page Links are already present in the SAO Nav. Additionally I don't think forum is needed. This is about SAO strictly.
*About chapter names included in the next previous: my stance is that it makes the whole thing look bulky. And you can simply expand SAO Nav not only to see your own position (black text) but also the positions of all the chapters (translated and untranslated) this helps motivate people to translate more chapters in less time because of the clash between the visual red and blue links.
*Those who strictly want to use the next/previous/main buttons need not expand the template at all just use the Next, Prev and Main Page Name Links. It's a system that caters to both types. And just doesn't restrict itself to one type. Plus the SAO Nav is for the SAO Novels alone so making changes in it will only affect SAO and no other novels.
*I am not a fan of the words forward and back since they give off a vibe in terms of page navigation history rather than novel navigation (by page history navigation I mean those two back and forward buttons in the Navigation Toolbar of your Internet Browser).
*Simple Navs only cater to those who read through linearly and only once. Not everyone does. SAO Nav caters to both parties and it's already ready to roll, so why is it wrong? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 23:37, 28 December 2011 (CST)

 this helps motivate people to translate more chapters in less time because of the clash between the visual red and blue links.

hahaha if only that was true :P

It's not "wrong" imo, it just seems a bit ... overkill. I'm neither for nor against, in that my stance is "I don't really care either way as long as there is some way to get to the next chapter", but I would like it to be standardized. Also, even if this is SAO only I still think it belongs in the forums because it's hard to quote stuff in wiki. --[[User:Jonathanasdf|jonathanasdf]] 00:54, 29 December 2011 (CST)

It's actually true. It's a subconscious trick I learned from my experience with mediawiki. People can't stand redlinks. They desire to remove them or turn them blue. If they can't remove them then they can '''only''' turn them blue by making articles. This is one of the things I have learned. Please have faith in me. I believe this trick has actually helped speed up the translation rates on many of the projects where similar templates have been implemented. I don't know about you guys, but I am sick and tired of waiting. If only I could read kanji/hiragana/katagana, I could help translate. But since I can't I must use such methods. If I didn't I'd just be a simple leacher (At least this way I can contribute indirectly). Furthermore, I assure you that my template will sate '''both''' those who want linear navigation '''and''' those who need to jump between chapters quickly. Isn't that better than just favoring one party? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 10:20, 29 December 2011 (CST)

I hereby declare. Implementing SAO Nav '''will''' improve not only the navigation but also the rate of translation. It is a time-tested surefire method. Please support me. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 10:34, 29 December 2011 (CST)

There's no need for that. Ping's doing a good job enough so we don't need to subconsiously press him. IMO, anavbar should just go forward and to the main page. No, wait, you just need to click 'SAO' on the sidebar to get back to the main page. Also, Zero, I'll ask you this: When do you surf through a certain chapter of a volume to another chapter 2-3 volumes after? There's no need for that, and in my old computer, the bar colapses too slowly. Not that I do really mind, since it's at the bottom, but still, it loads unnecessary content. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] ([[User_talk:Kira0802|Talk]]) 11:15, 29 December 2011 (CST)

I prefer the old one for its simplicity. Just go for previous/next chapter, and navigate 2 other chapters frm main page. short n simple. --[[User:Chancs|Chancs]] 11:29, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Time-tested surefire method? Where's the evidence? As for why I personally don't think the chapter jumping is useful, it is because I actually rely on chapter titles to look for where I want to jump to, and this navbar doesn't have (and can't really have) chapter titles. So, to me there is no advantage of this navbar over the old one, so I am not supporting it.

At the same time, to me there is no disadvantage that this navbar brings since my internet and computer are fast enough to load both at around the same speed, so I am not against it either... --[[User:Jonathanasdf|jonathanasdf]] 13:13, 29 December 2011 (CST)

I completely agree with 'chapters title' issue --[[User:Chancs|Chancs]] 13:27, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Simple design is fine, but the aforementioned lack of chapter title is a huge turn-off for me as well --[[User:TheQwertiest|TheQwertiest]] 14:15, 29 December 2011 (CST)

It is time tested. Shortly after it's implementation Infinite Stratos picked up it's pace of translation as did Itsuka Tenma and Baka Test, I will concede that for some reason it didn't work on Hidan no Aria, but it still has a high success rate. Toaru and Chrome Shelled don't count because they are near completion. About the chapters title issue. I can easily implement further variable tags that can take chapter names from writers and thus display them like the nav table of old. Even though I won't like that but if you guys say that you prefer it that way I can do it. Or I can Implement a system like the one in the [[Template:Nav]]. To have both links and have chapter names be generated automatically. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 16:20, 29 December 2011 (CST)

I surf/go back to check up on a previous fact. For example in chapter 9 of volume 4 the people from Volume 2 make an appearance. I can go back to refresh my memory of them. And sorry I don't just read a story once. I find that I understand new things each time I read them (like foreshadowings, predictions, etc). Each time I read through I find new and more interesting tidbits. And I am not alone in this. Each and every person goes through stories more than once, either due to the aforementioned reasons or just because they want to read through it again. And it is not definite that they will read through all the volumes linearly. Some might want to skip certain volumes. And I for one find going back to the main page tiresome. It's unnecessary. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 16:33, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Though 

1. Infinte Stratos was pretty much because Ping joined in. The content is rather easy. So is Baka-Test. I don't know about Itsuten though. However, the implentation of nav bar coincided with the summer vacations, if I remember well, so it's another factor.

2. OK, fine, some do use the 'skip a few chapters' function. However, from what I see from the comments, no one else needs it really.
[[User:Kira0802|Kira]] ([[User_talk:Kira0802|Talk]]) 16:59, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Yeah, I'm not sure that counts as proof, since the cause-effect could really go either way. Rather, I have a feeling it is because the translation speed picked up that there was more attention which led to the navbar being implemented. After all, I only see this navbar in the most popular novels...

And I was talking about the chapter names in the expanded navbar. I don't really care about chapter names in the next/prev because the only time I need chapter names is when I'm looking back for stuff. I don't think this navbar can easily have chapter name support in the expanded mode because some of them are really long. 

I'll try to stop writing anything more here since my stance is neutral anyways... --[[User:Jonathanasdf|jonathanasdf]] 17:45, 29 December 2011 (CST)

*''About being not needed:'' Dude, that's how all new things start out. People think they don't need them but give a while of use and it becomes indispensable. A few centuries ago people didn't need electricity or natural gas as much as they do now. But now, they start rioting if it's cut off for too long.
*''About Translation Speed:'' Ping was present before the template was added as well but only two volumes were translated. However after the Infinite Stratos Nav was implemented I believe a fire was sparked in Ping. I believe the redlinks were the motivation or rather the inspiration he needed. Of course I don't think this method affects everyone. But I'm sure it does affect some. and their example will move others, kind of like those cartoons where a little rock knocks down a bigger one which in turn knocks over an even bigger one, thus triggering an avalanche. We need to motivate people, even if the most mundane or subliminal methods are present I believe we should grasp and use them. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 17:49, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Even if it is circumstantial evidence at best I have faith in this method. About chapter names: True it would be difficult to implement full chapter names. But it is possible in some cases. However we are not talking abpout nav templates as a whole. Only for SAO. Please bear that in mind. And SAO does not have many named chapters. So that isn't an issue here. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 17:55, 29 December 2011 (CST)

...Zero, why would Ping scroll the nav bar anyways to see the red links? In my case, I post the translation, then I say 'Goodbye' and leave. Also, he posts his translation progression in the forums, in a portfolio. 

For the chapter names, I'd like to say that I want to know where I'm heading when I press 'forward'. Especially when there's 24 chapters in a volume that you don't care to remember which chapter you are on. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] ([[User_talk:Kira0802|Talk]]) 21:38, 29 December 2011 (CST)

Seeing red once would be enough, it stays in your head. Plus it is a fact that the pace picked up after implementation. And like I said I can add the next/prev page name display functionality if you guys really want it. But that's something to be requested on the [[Template Talk:SAO Nav]] page. It's actually quite simple to implement that. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 00:45, 30 December 2011 (CST)
------------

OK, here are the facts, ingnoring the IS argument since it was mostly because Ping started translating like a madafter he finished Index. They obviously show the opposite of what you are saying. Here's my statement: '''The translation pace does not get faster if there is a nav bar of added, with all the red links and else. It might even slow the pace.'''

*Itsuten: Volume 1 got completed 7 days earlier than Volume 3. Volume 1 was done before the nav bar was added, and volume 3, after. Can't say if it worked or not, but it's more penching towards the 'no' side.

*Hidan no Aria: The comparison before/after is obvious. It didn't work.

*Dantalian: What is the number of chapters completed since the nav bar was added? 0. It probably didn't work.

*Chrome Shelled Regios: 41k done in around four months. Around 178k before for the same length of time. Didn't work.

*Toaru Majutsu no Index, NT and SS: I can't find the updates page, but it probably changed nothing. However, Ping retired shortly after, so the place probably got slower. Following that reasoning, I say that it has less translation after. Though let's put this in the gray zone if you really want to insist.

*Baka To test: Volume7 has been done in 78 days. Volume 3.5 in 76. Hwever, since the nav bar was added during the translation of 7, soI can't use that. As for Volume 7.5, I didn't calculate it as different chapters were done in different orders, and that I use the beginning of the first chapter and the creation of the full text as references.

*Sword Art Online: During the time the bar was used, there were no completed chapters. Did not work.

So, you argument does not stand, Zero. [[User:Kira0802|Kira]] ([[User_talk:Kira0802|Talk]]) 15:45, 30 December 2011 (CST)

:Finally, someone who does his homework. I see, but I still hold that it does motivate others at a subconscious level (so much so that people don't realize it, normal rate is that it takes half a year to translate a single volume). It does not change the fact that SAO Nav will make navigation easier. Does it? Easier navigation leads to more popularity in websites which in turn will lead to faster development here. '''[http://www.mardiros.net/good-navigation.html That is a fact]''' (See ''Less clicks the better''). Jeez it's even drilled into every Computer Science student while discussing website development. Just look at the sidebar on the left. Why do you think they listed and linked the project names there when they could have made a separate page with the list? Answer: for faster navigation. Just because you won't use it, it's not right to ignore those who do. If you think there are people who would use it, shouldn't you accommodate them? Or will you ignore them just because they don't think like you. That's why I integrated next prev in all the nav templates, so that ''both sides would be happy''. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 16:32, 30 December 2011 (CST)

:You also mentioned (many posts ago) that the SAO Nav would collapse slowly. That's a personal problem. Since coding is used for the collapsing function, it stands that it's the fault of your computer alone. Nowadays everyone has at least a Core 2 Duo level processor. Those who don't are way behind the times. If you also have a Core 2 Duo or higher level processor then you must have CPU % intensive processes running on your computer in the background (try terminating them if there are, just be sure to check if they aren't a critical process on the net). But even if you don't and there is some other reason for the slowness that is no concrete reason to shelve faster navigation. The bar is at the bottom. By the time you would reach the bottom of the page (while reading) it would already have been collapsed. Like I said before it might not seem necessary now but give it a few weeks and it'll become indispensable. That's how it always goes with every new thing. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 16:32, 30 December 2011 (CST)

:Toaru and Chrome Shelled Regios were already near completion before the navbar was implemented. The navbar does not seem to work for nearly completed projects for some reason. I acknowledge that weak point. I also acknowledged that the navbar doesn't affect everyone but those it does effect would in turn affect others. As for SAO I don't think enough time was given before it was taken down. Thus that cannot be included. Hidan no Aria: well I won't say anything on those guys. They'd probably take offense. But at least they didn't reject the template so they must have either found it useful or didn't care. Come to think about it if you don't care either way then there isn't any problem is there? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 16:32, 30 December 2011 (CST)

I was wondering why Zero2001 is arguing so hard, now I know. From the look of Teh Ping's SAO talk page, you are a big fan, haha. [[User:Xplorer30|Xplorer30]] - [[User_talk:Xplorer30|Talk]] 20:05, 31 December 2011 (CST)

:Yes. Yes. Yes. I am a <big>'''BIG'''</big> fan. But I can't translate (although I can be an editor/proofreader, but I don't think it's enough). So I did what I could and made a nav template with advanced features. I wanted to help in any way I could. And what happened? A few days later all the changes I made were removed just because it looked slightly different from before. Look, with progress comes change. You can't help it. If you can't adapt then we'll just stay stuck in the same place forever. If you google it you'll find thousands of articles by famous website developers saying one thing. The lesser the number of page loadings required to get to a goal the better, aka "less clicks the better". Why do you think the sidebar with links to all projects exist? Why do you think that the chapters are transcluded into one volume page after said volume is completed? Answer: people want to reach their goal quickly and with less page loading. Please, I humbly request that I be allowed to apply SAO Nav. It will speed up page navigation for sure, thus it is '''''beneficial''''' '''(not detrimental)''' to the SAO Project. I only want to help with what I can. Please let me. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 20:44, 31 December 2011 (CST)

Think I have an idea about the resistance, your version is nice but it's a lot of work to update. I think they want a standardized version that's easy to use, even for people with not a lot of wiki knowledge. Or do you promise to make them forever? [[User:Xplorer30|Xplorer30]] - [[User_talk:Xplorer30|Talk]] 23:04, 31 December 2011 (CST)

:I can promise to make and update them for a long time. And I promise that before I leave I will train a successor that can do it as good as or even better than me. I can't say forever since life doesn't have any guarantees. Plus actually the templates are understandable by anyone who just sits down and looks at the code properly. That's how I learned, at least (ie: By looking at others work and understanding how it is done). Furthermore I think there are candidates for my successor here already. Vaelis who designed [[Template:Nav]] for instance, there's also larethian. And what do you mean it is a lot of work to update? For a new volume, all you have to do is copy the code for the previous row, make the necessary changes (ie: change the volume number and chapter links) and viola! It isn't tough at all. The people at other projects have already learned how to update them. Just a few days ago [[Template:Hidan no Aria Nav]] was updated with a full volume and not by me. I'm always ready to help and teach, you just need to ask. Don't be shy, come on by. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 23:17, 31 December 2011 (CST)

I took a look at your code and made my own, it needs some fixes but should work, here [[Template:AW Nav|Accel World Nav Template]]. [[User:Xplorer30|Xplorer30]] - [[User_talk:Xplorer30|Talk]] 04:53, 3 January 2012 (CST)

:Accel World got promoted from Teaser to Full Project? Whohoo! If you want I can design one of my templates for you. It'll only take less than 2 hrs. Feel free to ask. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 05:38, 3 January 2012 (CST)

But lets get back to the subject at hand. The SAO Nav is ready to roll for months now. Shall we? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 05:40, 3 January 2012 (CST)

It's not like something bad will happen if it is applied. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 05:51, 3 January 2012 (CST)

I just updated Wikipedia's SAO page and it was really problematic that I had to go to go through the chapters the way it is now, in order to gather the facts. chapter a -> main page -> chapter b -> main page -> chapter c -> main page -> ... I'm telling you SAO Nav would have been faster. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] - 06:03, 3 January 2012 (CST)

Look, the system isn't detrimental to the project, in fact it's ''beneficial''. And its already ready for implementation. So I would like to humbly request that I be allowed to implement it. Since there are no real minus points. There won't be any loss, so why not? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  22:15, 19 January 2012 (CST)

Have you ever heard of the term "silent assent"? [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  08:42, 27 January 2012 (CST)

I made a few adjustments thus reducing the height of the expanded template. Though the width seems to have increased as a result but that's acceptable since this will be on a separate line anyways (plus a small width template occupying a full line seems weird, at least to me). I'd like some feedback at least. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  14:21, 21 April 2012 (CDT)

Hey, Vaelis. Could you do me a favor and take a look at it once more. I made a few adjustments and added the recent links. It's up-to-date now and I'd appreciate it if you would consider it once more. [[User:Zero2001|Zero2001]] - [[User_talk:Zero2001|Talk]] -  15:09, 27 July 2012 (CDT)