Talk:Rakuin no Monshou:Volume2 Chapter3

Suggested sentences for revision

Completed edits for the entire chapter and added suggested revisions for parts 1 and 2 below. I'm still in the process of writing up suggested revisions for part 3 and will post them at a later date. And the list is looking shorter than last time ;). Also, I'm not sure how many of these would lend themselves to it, but I can make the changes that are 'CaM' or written out explicitly to save you time if you'd prefer. I think my selectivity in the level of importance for suggestions has shifted over the course of all of the chapters, let me know if you'd prefer more selective (and therefore shorter) lists. --Cthaeh (talk) 21:15, 3 December 2013 (CST)

• It's good to see the list as shorter. That means I'm doing something right. No complaints about content of current edits. Usually, I just wait until the revisions for all parts are posted and when I finally feel like fixing everything, then go and check over the raws over the specified parts and re-read what I wrote and fix any inflections/do some rewordings of my own. So it isn't really out of my way to change everything myself. Takes maybe a few extra minutes. I won't stop you though. And as for suggestions, just keep doing as is. Even if wrong, suggestions for improved flow/alternative wording can actually help improve my writing as well. Or it could just as well open me up to new ideas, etc. And I'll say it straight out. I suck at writing out facial descriptions. So some of them might end sounding weird because I'm not too sure how it would be written either. So I'll just give a lengthy description on those~. If you can provide a better alternative, that'd be good too. Thanks for fixing my overuse of past-perfect tense too. I admit I overuse it, but it's kind of hard to keep track while translating. --Detalz (talk) 15:42, 5 December 2013 (CST)

Also another note. 'Ho' is not a sound that's used in English writing, though 'Hoho' exists, but employs a different meaning. 'Ho' in most cases means 'Oh?', 'Ohho', 'Well I'll be', 'Well if this isn't..', and the list can go on. The instances where I put 'Ho' was actually just me being lazy. Plus, I don't really know what the tomboy version(Vileena's) of 'Ho' would transliterate into. Could I ask you to help fix these instances of 'Ho' when you have time(just for this chapter)? It's just another minor problem so nothing big to worry over. Many thanks appreciated. --Detalz

Part 1

he would immediately direct his eyes at the door, to find that it never opened.

• Suggested revision: "... eyes at the door, only to find that it hadn't opened."

• I find hadn't very strange here. When i read it with 'hadnt', I get the feeling he only does it once, but that's not how it is. Adding 'only' wouldn't hurt though.

His eyes tore straight up, and his lips turned upwards, to reveal his canine teeth.

• I wasn't sure what "His eyes tore straight up" means. Also, I would consider replacing "His eyes" with "Orba's eyes" just because the main subject of the previous sentence (and the previous "his") was Dinn.

• Brows might be better than eye. Imagine a little demon smiling, and its brows turning into an angle. Maybe a smiling troll face. Scheming, conniving, Mr. Burns. Not exactly sure what the english equivalent would be.

In that time, the light-footed gladiator Aeson climbed over the fencings and walls and aligned against the balcony of the room Oubary was situated in.

• Suggested change to "and aligned himself against".

• CaM

Aeson was a born pirate from the northern Zongan seas and experienced in the raising and lowering of the mast.

• "was a born pirate" implies that he has a natural aptitude that either did not come from experience, or goes beyond his level of experience as a pirate. While that's not necessarily wrong, I thought it was a strange statement to make in context. I would have expected it to just be "had been a pirate" or "was born a pirate" to say that he was experienced as a pirate.

• Changed to "was a pirate born in the northern..."

• I also thought "raising and lowering of the mast" was out of place with the context. Something like "climbing up and down the mast" is what I was expecting. However, if that's what's in the original, then that's what it should be.

• Haha, oops. CaM.

General Oubary is a general long serving Mephius.

• Suggested revision: General Oubary is a general that has long served Mephius.

• I'll think about it when I re-check the raws. It's certain texts like these that just make it annoying to translate. The raws vary from modern writing style, so I'm not sure if I should alter that in English to reflect that. It's usually just an olden way of speaking, but still a pain to deal with.

Rather, because the matter with Kaiser exists, Noue will not have to work for his accomplishments, right?”

• I think "accomplishments" doesn't quite fit, in part because they haven't happened yet. Something like 'goals', 'tasks', or 'objectives' seems to fit better for me. However, when I use Word's thesaurus on 'accomplishments', it gives a different definition than the plural of 'accomplishment'. That definition is something like 'endeavours', which would fit the context a little better here. However, I wasn't able to find that definition in my dictionary and obviously wasn't aware of it before, so I'm a little hesitant about it.

• I agree endeavour sounds better. Hmm, lemme double-check with the raws first, and I'll get back to it.

“Already in Mephius, hmm. You are exactly right. To this end, the search will also determinedly be met within Mephius. Of course…so this was Noue’s aim. The sword-slaves are an unfortunate bunch. They are the same as children provoked by wicked adults into fruitless opposition.”

• I didn't understand the italicized sentence. Though this is suppose to be just the tail of the conversation, so maybe its meaning is supposed to be unclear.

• It was also strangely worded in the raws. All this formal/olden/noble wording is actually a pain to try to translate into English. The modern equivalent would be "the search is sure to take place within Mephius"

• OK, it's probably good as is for olden style wording. I just wasn't sure how much of that sentence we were supposed to understand (ie the "search" is supposed to be unknown).

“A cuirass, sandals, and bangles.”<!--Should I word it “Get me a cuirass…” to make it more obvious that it’s Orba’s proposal?”-->

• re your question: I understood that it was Orba saying it.

The guard at the gate saw Orba’s mask and bowed. He wasn’t a man with much of a prominent personality, but in accordance to the rules, performed an inspection for weapons after which he granted permission for him to enter.

• I wasn't really sure what not being a "prominent personality" meant for the guard. As I understand it, "prominent personality" would refer to someone who was well known or famous. But it seems strange to bother saying that guard at the gate is not famous since I would consider that obvious or implicitly expected without saying it, so I thought there may have been a different intended meaning.

• Ah, 'character' would probably be better. It's supposed to mean "nothing about him really stood out" or something or the sort.

No sooner than he had entered the garden, all the men and women called out to him. The name and appearance of the gladiator said to have defeated Ryucown had become well-known. The nobles had mostly hosted parties at their own homes and invited those they wanted to come.

• The last sentence seems out of place. I would have expected it to be saying something along the lines of 'the nobles had invited Orba the gladiator to the parties they hosted in their homes'.

• I also thought it was out of place(in the raws too). It's a supposed transition, stating how usually, no one dressed as how Orba was and with an upbringing such as his, would usually join them in a party and how it was unexcpected and all. I'll check later and add into a new line if anything.

The two seemed to be facing each other and chatting happily. And as they appeared to do so, open hostility could be seen within those two pairs of eyes.

• The "And as they appeared... ," seems redundant with the "The two seemed to be" in the previous sentence. Suggested revision to the following

- The two seemed to be facing each other and chatting happily, however, open hostility could be seen within those two pairs of eyes.

• Duly noted. However, to keep the intended meaning, the first instance will be fixed instead. "The two were facing each other and chatting happily. And as they appeared to do so,..."

Part 2

If I don’t make my own foothold, no progress will make way.”

• Italicized part seemed a little strange. Assuming it doesn't distort the intended focus/meaning, I would have used something like "I will not make any progress".

• That's the intended meaning. I'll check with raws later.

If such things were made to pass, even the country’s management would spiral out of control.

• The italicized portion might sound more natural as "things were allowed to pass" or "things came to pass". However, I can see how those might be diverging from the intended focus.

• Slightly, but I can't describe it exactly myself. I think it's fine the way it is.

Vileena thought ascertainingly, in the hosted party held at the Moonlight Palace this evening.

• "ascertainingly" isn't a word, even though it's something that people would probably get the gist of. 'perceptively' is a somewhat close alternative that could be used. Also, this sentence just sounded a little strange, though I understand it's meant to transition us from Vileena's dress fitting to the party (without doing the typical break with extra lines). I want to say "Vileena thought ___ during/(while attending) the hosted party ..." sounds a little better, but I'm not entirely sure it would for anyone but me.

• Make your own word by modifiying a verb into an adverb by adding 'ing' + 'ly'! The proper way in "How to write English 1.1 for noobs" On a side note, what exactly is supposed to go in the underscore? Would changing 'thought ascertaingly' to 'ascertained' be better? Actually, I'm not even sure if English writing would bother with using 'ascertained' and just go straight with 'thought' instead. I need to read an English book...before I forget all the fine grammar points @_@.

• The blank was just for whatever word ended up going there (whether 'acertainingly' or something else).

• Oh, I thought you only wanted to suggest changing the word 'ascertainingly'. Changed to 'Vileena ascertained while attending the hosted part..."

No matter how savage a country Mephius was, there should be those that could not ignore their feelings of opposition towards the emperor’s conduct nonetheless.

• I'm not as sure on this one, but I thought "nonetheless" might be redundant with the starting "No mater how", and could be deleted.

• Removed 'nonetheless'

I will make sure of each and every one of their positions and views, and so that I may use it to somehow benefit Garbera, I must determine my own standing.

• The sentence's current structure implies to me that she is saying she will either use her own standing to the benefit of Garbera, or that she must first determine her own standing before she can make use of the information (positions and views). Not necessarily anything wrong, I just don't quite understand why knowing her position needs to relate to the information gathered.

• Ah. This sentence. I hated it. The ambiguity of the subject was mind-boggling to a whole new level(at least for me). Basically, 'determine my own standing' = ' establish my own position of support', so that she can use it to further her goals as you mentioned in the latter half. 'positions and views' means more of standpoint. She needs to know where they stand, and also establish herself as one of them, in order to accomplish her goals. Hope this clarifies. You can fix this as you please.

She decided for a change in location. And if at some place this topic would come up, she would attempt to join in.

• I would have expected the first sentence to be something like "She decided to move about." (something that implies she is constantly moving and listening for 'this topic', rather than just changing one location to another single location). Also, this is more minor, but I might have written the first part of the second sentence as something like "And if this topic came up at some spot, she ...".

• Spot is more appropriate, so it's all good. And i wrote more of thinking 'she would try some place else(one destination in mind) and if while traversing there, she came across someone speaking the topic....' So I think this might just be a difference in interpreting the sentence?

• Your interpretation is valid. My interpretation was biased by what I expected her to be doing. Another alternative for the second part with that new interpretation would be "And if this topic came up somewhere along the way, she would attempt to join in." (I actually didn't think 'spot' was all that appropriate, I just couldn't think of anything better. I like this new one best, but it's also a much more liberal change).

• CaM

He was showing a magnificent dance with one of the ladies, as the surrounding groups of women threw glares of jealousy and envy.

• Suggested revision of "showing" to "performing" or "showing off". Though both of those have a slightly different meanings from 'show', so maybe it wouldn't work.

• Now I'm confused as to why you brought up 'showing' for revision. What you wrote at the end seems to imply you admit 'showing' in this context is correct? Changed to 'Showing off'

• I just thought 'showing' was unusual to use there, or perhaps it was merely that it was unexpected for me. However, I couldn't think of an alternative that I liked with such a neutral/passive connotation as 'showing' (it's probably that connotation that made it feel unnatural to me), hence my admitting the difference in my proposed changes.
• Well, reading it a second time, it does strike as a bit unexpected to me. But I think this is a problem with translating passive directly into English. It's not that it's wrong, so much as not commonly used in English writing. I'd actually like Dohma/another translator's opinion on this, and see what a more liberal translator would do. Considering Noue's personality, he likely danced as to 'show off', though the narrative used the verb 'show'(could be seen). Meh, I'll leave it as is for now.

He offered his greetings if not one second early, and for some reason quickly drew towards the direction of the party.

• "if not one second early" seems a little strange; I think it means he did it quickly? Also, the second half of the sentence implies to me that he left Vileena (left in the direction of the main party). However, he later joins in the conversation with Ineli (meaning he's still there), so I was a little confused on the later half.

• it should be 'if not one second earlier'. Means he wanted to get it over with. Party is the one in the garden, not the main one in the halls.

“Ah, could it be I’ve yet to introduce to my elder sister?

• Suggested "I've yet to be introduced to" or "I've yet to introduce myself to".

• Accidentally omitted 'myself'

I felt it would be better to exchange fellow greetings as early as possible, for the both of us.”

• Suggested removal of "fellow". I thought "exchange greetings" already contains the context added by "fellow".

• CaM

(Ineli) “Just now, I have had the pleasure of entertaining a dance with Lord Salzantes ... // (Vileena)... “I have had the pleasure of witnessing this a moment ago, but Princess Ineli is extremely skilled.

• Ineli's "I have had" could be reduced to "I had", but it's actually fine as is. Vileena's "I have had" would sound more natural/correct as "I had". However, I thought it was possible this was intentionally done to represent Vileena mimicking Ineli's style of speech. If that's the case, then it should probably be left as is.

• It's formal speech. It's their first meeting, and they have their standings to consider after all.

“My, is that so. So that’s how it is. Well, it’s better not to fret over it. I have been taught by a dancing instructor since I was three. That instructor is a master dancer of the Arion imperial court. That person has been praised with having talent at the age of three.”

• The last sentence seemed strange, I didn't quite know what to make of it. I thought it might have seemed strange because Ineli is saying that she has never been taught (she is her own instructor) in a conceited and convoluted manner? If that's the case, then maybe things should be left as is (I can't think of any specific changes to make).

• She was taught at the age of three by an instructor who, coincidentally, was named as one with talent also at the age of 'three'.

As Ineli showed her approval, she intently watched Vileena, whose eyes were screwed up.

• I wasn't sure exactly what it means for someone's eyes to be screwed up. My guess, which is somewhat corroborated by google, is that it is or is similar to the state of suppressing tears where the muscles under the eye and eyelids scrunch together. So I'm suspicious this is just a random lapse in my vocabulary and that everything is fine, but I'm just double checking.

• Yea, that's what it's supposed to mean. Though I usually don't associate the action with suppressing tears, but more of a frowning gesture with one's eyelids showing disapproval/dislike.

She was sent for not only by tutors within Mephius, but also from those around the world of different varieties of styles, and was confident in her own sense of style.

• This ties in to my earlier uncertainty about whether Ineli's dancing was self-taught. If she's not self-taught, then shouldn't she be the one sending for tutors? If she is self-taught, I still wouldn't expect tutors to send for her, but I guess the tutors want to be taught by her so they can teach their students?

• I'll double-check the raws. I think they just wanted the privilege to be the one to educate the princess?

• OK, I guess that makes sense.

During tea talks, the subject of their gossip would shift towards Vileena. And, whilst she stayed in the same country, her situation of being holed up in the women’s chambers was strangely exaggerated. Today, they passed by each other and exchanged glances, and with the slightest of efforts Vileena caught the attention of her surroundings, the very thought of which Ineli could not stomach.

• The last two sentences, particularly the last, seemed a little awkward to me. Though I'm having trouble coming up with a suggested revision right at the moment. If nothing is apparent to you, then I suggest skipping this. I might come back and add a suggestion when I get to finishing part 3.

• Maybe, "Just today, they passed by each other and exchanged glances, and with the slightest of efforts Vileena caught the attention of her surrounds. The very thought of this sickened her." It's a slight alteration ins structure. You can decide whether or not to use it.

and breathes of sighs leaked out from the observing members

• Suggestion that "breathes of sighs" can be reduced to "sighs" as more natural sounding.

• CaM

Stealthy giggles were sneaked from the surroundings.

• Suggested revision to "Stealthy giggles sneaked out from the surroundings."

• CaM

And then using the rotation of her hips, hurled the startledly hopping Baton.

• "startledly" is something else that's not an actual word even though most people likely understand the intent. "the startled, hopping Baton" would be a more technically correct alternative. Also, this sentence is technically missing a noun (she), but it works ok carrying over from the previous sentence if you want to leave it as is.

CaM. It's meant to be a sentence carry. Was a bit conflicted on whether to use a comma, period, or semi-colon though.

Baton fell face flat onto the floor.

• "fell face first" or "fell flat on his face" might be more common phrasing than "face flat." Though, "face flat" does have a reasonable number of google hits so maybe it's not too uncommon even though it seems off to me.

• Changed to "face first"

and donned a mask was the once former gladiator.

• "once" could be removed, unless that unusual pairing of "once former" was intentional.

• Ahaha, this instance I actually added 'once' out of personal preference. I guess this could also be considered another of the many minor faults in my writing. CaM.

The branches of the forest rustled, the fountain bathed in an attractive golden under the fires, and gentle smiles spread across the faces of the guests as they watched the unfolding scene take place.

• Two suggested possible revisions:

- the fountain was bathed in an attractive golden light under the fires

- the fountain was bathed in an attractive gold under the light of the fires

• Hmm. Changed to "The branches of the forest rustled and the fountain bathed in an attractive golden under the fire lights as gentle smiles..". Using 'fountain was bathed' changes the feel of the sentence and makes it seem somewhat less....romantic/lively.

• I think that change still has the problem that 'golden' is an adjective, but it isn't followed by a noun to modify. That's why my revisions changed it to either 'gold' (it's own noun) or added the noun 'light'.

• Oh, so that was the point. Golden is a noun in this sentence. Refer to http://www.learnersdictionary.com/blog.php?action=ViewBlogArticle&ba_id=33 for some more common examples. Verbs can also be modified this way, i.e. Let me buy you a drink, or He scored a win in which case verbs were changed into nouns. It's just this method of nomalization isn't quite as often used with colors, which is why you found it weird.

Part 3

tbc