Difference between revisions of "Talk:Meeting:March302014"

Revision as of 18:53, 30 March 2014

Meeting started

Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.

"is the one week requirement to complete a new chapter

choice 1) keep it 2) extend it to a month 3) remove it

<Kira0802> 3.
<Vallor> 2/3
<stellarroze> 2.
<krytyk> 1
<Misogi> 3
<Lery> 3
<cloudii> 3
<Lord-Simon> 3
<Darkoneko> 3

Majority to remove it.

consensus seems to expect a new project to already have material ready (like a prologue/intro already translated), rather than start from zero DarkoNeko talk 08:40, 30 March 2014 (CDT)

teaser status / ATP

random questions during chat mode (to complete)

Should teasers be an intermediate step in the creation of a project ?
What about teasers where the translator know already that (s)he'll be too busy to continue (and made than in hope another translator picks the project up) ?
Translators often tag something as a project in hope to get it to the side bar/categories and give it visibility
Every project seems to start by being tagged as a teaser for some reason (misuse ?)

Vote of new modus operandi :

1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project
2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending
3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis (or other supervisor) approves

<Kira0802> Yea
<cloudii> Yes
<Cthaeh> yes
<krytyk> yes
<rock96> Yep
<hayashi> yes
<stellarroze> yes
<Code-Zero> yes
<Vallor> Yes but what's happened to the deadline?
<Misogi> Yes (although the Alt. Languages situation should be clarified).
<DarkoNeko> yes
<Lery> yes
<Lord-Simon> yes

mailing supervisors

<cloudii> There are number of instances int he rules
<cloudii> that require members to "email" supervisors
<cloudii> ...
<cloudii> Remove all references thereof 
<cloudii> of that form of contact

Vote : everyone approve

Creating a wiki page for requests

" Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor."

(like on wikipedia)

vote :

<+Lord-Simon> yes
<Misogi> Yes.
<cloudii> yes
<Kira0802> Yea
<rock96> Yes.
<&DarkoNeko> agreed
<krytyk> y
<Lery> yes
<hayashi> yes

remove Wiki rules on forums

"rules about the forum should be on the forum, but rules about the wiki are also on the forum. They should be moved to the wiki"

Vote : everyone agrees

Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

vote : all approve.

Detail of content of saide pages to be discussed séparatly

inactivity

Inactive people in power group issues :

Risk of accounts being hacked
Risks of people asking long-time inactive members to do stuff and never get answers.
cluttering of said groups

Motion :

<cloudii> 1). One year of inactivty = loss of physical wiki rights
<cloudii> 2). If you end up coming back, talk to a sysop to be reinstated

Vote :

<Kira0802> Yea
<Cthaeh> vote yes
<rock96> yes
<Lery> yes
<hayashi> mondai nai
<krytyk> y
<&DarkoNeko> vote y
<Vallor> yes
<victorrama> Yea
<+Lord-Simon> yes, even if I'm sceptical

project leading and supervisions

Renaming of some of the roles for a project, for clarity

 "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (usually one of the translators or editors. Does not need to be a member of a particular power user group)"
 "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above)"

<cloudii> Yes
<krytyk> yes
<Kira0802> Yea
<Vallor> Yeah
<Misogi> Yes (although I may not count)
<Lery> yes
<Cthaeh> yes, vote
<&DarkoNeko> i'd have preferred "translation project manager" for clarity, but I'll take that
<rock96> 'K, I think

Vote : approved

Project Manager

"If a project manager knows they'll be away for a while, they should designate a subtitute to take all decisions in their absence"

Vote : all agreed.

"In case of unannounced inactivity or management issues, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or appoint a new Project Manager amongst the active project members"

Vote : approved.

"The first Project Manager is appointed by the Supervisor during ATP procedure."

Vote : approved.

x

Complete Log of the Meeting


15:00 < stellarroze> ...
15:00 < Lord-Simon> ...
15:00 < Vallor> You didn't found a better version?
15:01 < Misogi> Removed.
15:01 < stellarroze> my lord...
15:01 < Lord-Simon> ?
15:01 < hayashi> hrm
15:01  * DarkoNeko claps hands
15:01 <&DarkoNeko> alright people, it's time
15:01 < hayashi> it's already the appointed time
15:01 < Lord-Simon> So.... where's TLG ?
15:01 < stellarroze> let's wait till 14:15
15:01 < Lord-Simon> lol
15:02 < stellarroze> if he's not here then the meeting will be considered over
15:02 < stellarroze> 13 minutes more
15:02 < Mystes> lol
15:02 < stellarroze> mystes ;_;
15:02 < cloudii> It's 7am in the morning for him… so… xD
15:02 < Mystes> 9AM for me~
15:02 < Lord-Simon> 3pm for me
15:02 < hayashi> it's 9pm
15:02 < Misogi> 3pm
15:02 <&DarkoNeko> whyever did he chose that time, I cannot fathom
15:02 < victorrama> 8pm
15:03 < hayashi> and liverpool-spurs starts in 2 hours
15:03 < Lord-Simon> btw
15:03 < Lord-Simon> don't forget to change the time
15:03 < Lord-Simon> on your clocks
15:03 < Mystes> i did
15:03 < victorrama> I'm restraining myself the best i can
15:03 < Mystes> long ago
15:03 < Vallor> It is so stupid btw...
15:03 < krytyk> obviously, its to pamper us, europeans
15:03 <&DarkoNeko> long ago, like, last month ? :D
15:04  * stellarroze hugs victorrama
15:04 < krytyk> thus this time was chosen
15:04 < Mystes> pretty much
15:04 <&DarkoNeko> eh, i doubt it
15:04 <&DarkoNeko> it ws to including japan/singapoure
15:04 <&DarkoNeko> else it would have been in the evening eruopean time
15:04  * Misogi is tempted to post WTF things.
15:04 <&DarkoNeko> and early afternoon for him
15:04 < hayashi> lol
15:05 <&DarkoNeko> Misogi, we're supposed to start soon , so...
15:05 < hayashi> where are all the singaporeans D:
15:05 < Vallor> Calm down Misogi 
15:05 < Lord-Simon> "supposed"
15:05 < cloudii> Teh Ping said he'd be late if at all
15:05 < stellarroze> let's wait 10 more minutes...
15:05 < Misogi> Well, "supposed".
15:05 -!- xenocross [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:05 < stellarroze> hi xenocross
15:05 < Vallor> Post them on twitter. :D
15:05 < Mystes> no tlg
15:05 < Misogi> Need to kill some time, after all.
15:05 < Mystes> kick him
15:05 < stellarroze> tweet tweet
15:05 < Mystes> not useful
15:05 < krytyk> well, stella, heroes always come late
15:05 < Lord-Simon> ...
15:05 < Lord-Simon> Well
15:05 < xenocross> hi...
15:05 < krytyk> thats truth of this universe
15:05 <&DarkoNeko> well, we can always chat on topic. I can answer questions relative to what's under the wiki hood
15:05 < Lord-Simon> We could start sending mails
15:05 < Vallor> hi!
15:05 < Mystes> sup xeno
15:05 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, that's waht she said
15:06 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, what's this, the 90 ?
15:06 < Mystes> kk, i should make myself more recognizable
15:06 < krytyk> ke
15:06 -!- Mystes is now known as Kira0802
15:06 < Lord-Simon> 90 ?
15:06 <&DarkoNeko> the 90'
15:06 < hayashi> not recognisable enough kira
15:06 < hayashi> can you change your nick to treehugger
15:06 < krytyk> add two mozer zeros
15:06 < Lord-Simon> lol
15:06 < Kira0802> no
15:06 < Kira0802> :<
15:06 < stellarroze> kira ;_;
15:06 < krytyk> more zeros*
15:06 < Lord-Simon> 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:06 < Kira0802> my friend has a vid of me spparently fucking a tree
15:06 <&DarkoNeko> we already have Code-Zero 
15:06 < Kira0802> not posting it
15:06 < Lord-Simon> kira...
15:07 <&DarkoNeko> ...thanks for telling us that
15:07 < Misogi> You shoudn't.
15:07 < Kira0802> truth or dare, man.
15:07 < krytyk> a riddle, of how much zeros does code-zero consist
15:07 < Lord-Simon> 0
15:07 < Kira0802> 2001 0.
15:07 < Kira0802> :DDD
15:07 <&DarkoNeko> one
15:07 < Kira0802> is zero here?
15:07 < stellarroze> Zero2001 ?
15:07 <&DarkoNeko> rude
15:07 < hayashi> I hope not
15:08 < victorrama> Which zero
15:08 < Kira0802> oh, zzhk is here
15:08  * Kira0802 slaps zzhk around a bit with a large trout
15:08 < krytyk> zzhk was here for hours now
15:08 < victorrama> I think he wont join
15:08 < stellarroze> grrrrrrrrrr
15:08 < victorrama> He will when i snap
15:08 < Kira0802> never seen zz somewhere else than #campione
15:08 < victorrama> To quote ne
15:08 < victorrama> *me
15:08 < krytyk> wron g chan victor
15:08 < krytyk> quotebot on campione
15:08 <&DarkoNeko> 'nyone up for a game of go ?
15:08 <&DarkoNeko> O'm bored
15:09 < krytyk> if quotebot was here he'd zzhk'd overheat
15:09 < victorrama> He transcend chans
15:09 < krytyk> zzhk*
15:09  * Misogi has been traumatized while studying.
15:09 < Lord-Simon> quote bot...
15:09 -!- mib_cfp1sj [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:09 < Lord-Simon> tlg ?
15:09 < Kira0802> is this TLG?
15:09 < cloudii> ^^
15:09 < stellarroze> oh yeah
15:09 < stellarroze> tlg has evolved into a mib!
15:09 < Vallor> ^^
15:09 < Lord-Simon> lol
15:09 < hayashi> brb checking up on my fleet
15:09 < krytyk> or devolved?
15:09 < stellarroze> but mibs never last :(
15:09 <&DarkoNeko> jumpping to conclusion much ? lol
15:09 < victorrama> Lul
15:10  * Code-Zero slaps mib_cfp1sj around a bit with a large fishbot
15:10 < Vallor> 5 minutes still or he is here?
15:10 < stellarroze> he might be the mib
15:10 -!- Lery [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:10 < hayashi> oooh
15:10 < Kira0802> i can wait longer
15:10 < Kira0802> hi lery
15:10 < stellarroze> Lery!
15:10  * stellarroze hugs Lery
15:10  * Kira0802 hugs Lery
15:10 < Lery> Hello there ^^
15:10 < hayashi> maybe we should wait
15:10 < DefaultMelody> Waiting...
15:10 < Lord-Simon> hi
15:11 < hayashi> more people seem to be popping up
15:11 < victorrama> I'm used to wait
15:11 < Kira0802> tlg is waiting for a large crowd
15:11 < Lord-Simon> That what's she said.
15:11 < Lery> Well, it's 13:11 GMT only...
15:11 < stellarroze> no
15:11 < Vallor> He could have chosen a better nickname...
15:11 < stellarroze> it's 14:11
15:11 < victorrama> ^
15:11 < Lery> She ???
15:11 < victorrama> Who's she
15:11  * DarkoNeko sighs
15:11 < victorrama> I only see stella
15:11 < stellarroze> .g god is a girl
15:11 < Kira0802> It's 1PM GMT for me
15:11 < stellarroze> :(
15:12 < Kira0802> WTF
15:12 < Kira0802> my converter
15:12 < hayashi> no bots here
15:12 < stellarroze> no internet bot
15:12 < xenocross> because it said "general meeting". I thought I have to attend at least 
15:12 < Lery> Really ? Didn't know it
15:12 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, your joke failed hard lol
15:12 < Vallor> Hi lery btw!
15:12 < Lord-Simon> yeah...
15:12 < Lery> Hullo Vallor ^^
15:12 < stellarroze> is oni coming as well?
15:12 < Lery> No idea
15:12 < Misogi> Well, hi Lery (weird to say that, though).
15:12 < Kira0802> idl
15:12 < Kira0802> idk*
15:12 < krytyk> what if
15:12 < cloudii> …he would probably be here by now if he was…
15:13 < krytyk> tlg is already among us
15:13 < Lery> @Misogi, why ?
15:13 < hayashi> hm
15:13 < Misogi> Twitter.
15:13 < hayashi> imma try buzz ping on fb
15:13 < Lery> Is he ?
15:13 <&DarkoNeko> so, what part of http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Meeting:March302014 culd we do without him ?
15:13 < Kira0802> WHAT IF GOD WAS ONE OF US
15:13 < cloudii> ping said that he'd be late on fb
15:13 < Vallor> xD
15:13 < hayashi> but it's 9pm+ in sg
15:13 < Lord-Simon> kira.. calm down
15:13 < hayashi> he should be home by now
15:13 < Kira0802> JUST A SLOB LIKE ONE OF US
15:13 < Lery> Any way to magnify text using Mibbit ?
15:13 <&DarkoNeko> we could strart with cloudii's "Modify, simplify and remove outdated rules from the guidelines: "
15:13 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, like any other webpage, ctrl+ +
15:14 < Lord-Simon> do you use chrome ?
15:14 < Misogi> Yep, it requires everyone's help.
15:14 < hayashi> also
15:14 < hayashi> where is KH
15:14 < Vallor> Maybe Big Brother is watching us...
15:14 < hayashi> oh wait
15:14 < hayashi> he's back in camp
15:14 < hayashi> XD
15:14 < victorrama> Kira
15:14 < cloudii> I'm in favor of DarkoNeko's suggestion to get started anyways xD
15:14 <&DarkoNeko> could someone summarize https://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8726 it's too long didn't read :D
15:14 < Lery> @DarkoNeko, yeah, but the interface will then be magnified as well
15:14 < victorrama> He'd slap me
15:14 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, aye
15:14 < Kira0802> wtf darko
15:14 < cloudii> I can talk it through
15:14 <&DarkoNeko> Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules. <- YES.
15:14 < Lord-Simon> 15 more minutes and then start ?
15:14 < Kira0802> it's like 3 pages long
15:15 <&DarkoNeko> actually, why the fuck are they on the forum
15:15 < Kira0802> because forums = life
15:15 < hayashi> that's one of the points
15:15 < cloudii> 1). Remove the One Week deadline from the project creation rules
15:15 < hayashi> the wiki and the forums are not meshing
15:15 < cloudii> 2). Change the wording of the {{Warning:ATP}}
15:15 < Lery> Well, actually we could talk about Cloud's points.
15:15 < hayashi> something needs to be done about that
15:15 <&DarkoNeko> meshing ?
15:15 < Kira0802>     >Part 1: Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.
15:15 < Kira0802>     >Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.
15:15 < Kira0802>     >Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.
15:15 <&DarkoNeko> hey, let cloud explain lol
15:15 < Lord-Simon> *sigh*
15:15 <&DarkoNeko> don't spam on his parade
15:15 < hayashi> the forums is supposed to function in tandem with the wiki
15:15 < Lord-Simon> Stop here
15:16 < hayashi> at least that's the way I see it
15:16 < Lord-Simon> Choose a person to explain
15:16 < Lord-Simon> wait for explanation
15:16 < hayashi> but currently it's not
15:16 < cloudii> Um, can someone chair the meeting?
15:16 < Lord-Simon> get a mediator
15:16 < Kira0802> TLG
15:16 < Lord-Simon> and do the stuff
15:16 <&DarkoNeko> what does  a chair do ?
15:16 < Lord-Simon> I can
15:16 < hayashi> can we just get cloudi to explain everything
15:16 < cloudii> sure, Simon can chair
15:16 <&DarkoNeko> yes, let's do that
15:16 < victorrama> simon be mediator
15:16 < Misogi> Well, I can handle a part of the task too.
15:16  * Kira0802 hugs Cloudii
15:16 < stellarroze> i vote for simon!
15:16 <&DarkoNeko> i can ban the unrelies XD
15:16  * stellarroze hugs cloudii
15:16 <&DarkoNeko> unrulies*
15:17 < victorrama> Don't Kill me
15:17  * Kira0802 hugs stella
15:17 < krytyk> chat discipline~
15:17 < cloudii> Okays, so Part 1 :Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.
15:17  * stellarroze hugs victorrama
15:17 <&DarkoNeko> shh
15:17 < hayashi> STOP HUGGING
15:17 < cloudii> The first rule that comes to mind that is outdated
15:17 < Lery> Uh, I think that it's only DarkoNeko who has the rights to moderate the channel currently.
15:17 < cloudii> is the one week requirement to complete a new chapter
15:17 < Kira0802> we can delete that
15:17 < cloudii> for a new project
15:17 < Misogi> Agreed.
15:17 < cloudii> just delete that rule
15:17 < Lery> Agreed
15:17 < Lord-Simon> People
15:17 < victorrama> ^
15:17 < cloudii> Motion to agree?
15:17 < Lord-Simon> Shut up
15:17 <&DarkoNeko> why is that rule a problem ?
15:17 < stellarroze> one month?
15:17 < cloudii> Okay
15:17 < Lord-Simon> Thank you
15:18 < cloudii> so, it's a problem
15:18 < Lord-Simon> Cloidii, once agian please
15:18 < Kira0802> No, if therE's not enough, we can simply not approve
15:18 < cloudii> because most projects don't even follow that guideline
15:18 < Kira0802> instead of going all the way to delete it
15:18 < cloudii> in the first place
15:18 < Lery> Well, it's stressing the translators who would like to begin...
15:18 < stellarroze> hmmm
15:18 < cloudii> theoretically
15:18 < stellarroze> fair enough
15:18 < cloudii> any project
15:18 < victorrama> Listen to simon. Please stay wuite ,:now
15:18 < cloudii> tagged with ATP, is supposed to be deleted within a week
15:18 < cloudii> unless the translator gets permission from a supervisor
15:18 < cloudii> to get it extended
15:19 <&DarkoNeko> okay, so a little pause
15:19 < krytyk> a translator can first translate a chapter, and then start a project, if he is determined he will do that. I believe that rule was made to avoid people pick up new project, and then go MIA
15:19 <&DarkoNeko> choice 1) keep it 2) extend it to a month 3) remove it
15:19 < Kira0802> 3.
15:19 < Vallor> 2/3
15:19 < stellarroze> 2.
15:19 < krytyk> 1
15:19 < Misogi> 3
15:19 < Lery> 3
15:19 < cloudii> 3
15:19 < Vallor> I'd prefer the third though
15:19 < hayashi> 2
15:19 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, so, having a chapter (or a prologue) ready before the project is actually created, then 
15:20 < cloudii> Can I bring up a point?
15:20 < Lord-Simon> 3
15:20 < Kira0802> go ahead
15:20 <&DarkoNeko> sure
15:20 < Lord-Simon> Let me get some paper
15:20 < cloudii> Theoretically, we want all of our project startup guidelines
15:20 < cloudii> to include rules governing teaser creation
15:20 <&DarkoNeko> I'll go create a summary of the discussion on http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014&action=edit&redlink=1
15:20 < Vallor> But it is a problem fo alternative langages
15:20 < krytyk> moreover, considering that rule, I want to pick up another facet of it, the teasers
15:20 < krytyk> it is really ambigious considering teaser projects
15:20 < cloudii> exactly
15:21 < Kira0802> Teasers do not have any rule concerning them, and it'd ok.
15:21 < cloudii> That is point 2 on my page
15:21 < Misogi> Coudii mentionned that point later in the post.
15:21 -!- DefaultMelody [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
15:21 < Misogi> Cloudii*
15:21 < krytyk> yeah, I mean those issues are connected
15:21 < cloudii> There are no rules whatsoever governing the creation of teasers
15:21 < krytyk> so if you discuss one, you should consider the other at the same time.
15:21 < cloudii> sure
15:21 < cloudii> so, here's the issue with the teasers
15:21 < Misogi> Teaser = A translator only does some chapters, nothing more.
15:22 < cloudii> since there are no rules governing the uploading up them
15:22 < cloudii> and also the fact that some people don't consider teasers to be "starting a new project"
15:22 < cloudii> whereas other people do
15:22 < hayashi> i have a question
15:22 < hayashi> can anyone create a teaser
15:22 < cloudii> go ahead
15:22 < cloudii> yes
15:22 < Kira0802> yes
15:22 < Lord-Simon> yes
15:22 < hayashi> ah ok
15:23 <&DarkoNeko> that may be a problem
15:23 < hayashi> should we restrict it to translators only?
15:23 < Kira0802> it's not
15:23 < stellarroze> even a machine translator?
15:23 <&DarkoNeko> teasers seems to be quite the "bastardised" status
15:23 < Lord-Simon> I would vote for no.
15:23 < krytyk> to create a teaser you need a correctly translated part
15:23 < Kira0802> well, a machine TL can touch a teaser as much as a normal translation
15:23 < krytyk> so not just anyone can do it
15:23 < hayashi> like a series that a translator wants to do but has no time so it's just something he's throwing out there?
15:23 < Misogi> ^
15:23 -!- arczyx [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:23 < Kira0802> @Hayashi, yeah, something like that
15:23 < cloudii> Well, it's just my observation that the usage of the "teaser tag" no longer represents what we originally intended for it
15:23 < Lord-Simon> One thing about this whole thing.
15:24 <&DarkoNeko> it probably shoiuld be only a translator, but we would keep away potential new translators if only existing ones can do that
15:24 < krytyk> that might be what some people want to do, but it should be treated as something that "teases" and possibly catches some other translators interest
15:24 < cloudii> All new projects on the wiki are tagged with some sort of teaser tag
15:24 < cloudii> in the English projects
15:24 < cloudii> On the other hand, ATP tag is neglected
15:24 < cloudii> that's the main issue here
15:24 < Misogi> Exception of Alt. Languages.
15:24 < Lord-Simon> One person states the problem and explains it. We wait till he/she is done. Discuss it. And at the end we vote.
15:24 < Lery> What was it intended to be at first?
15:24 < cloudii> Imo, all brand new translations on the wiki, should be tagged with ATP
15:25 < cloudii> Oni's original rules didn't not account for the existence of teasers
15:25 <&DarkoNeko> "ATP" ?
15:25 < hayashi> the initial discussion was about the existence of the 1 week deadline
15:25 < cloudii> "Pending Project Tag"
15:25 < Kira0802> I disagree for that
15:25 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png
15:25 < hayashi> so far we seem to be mostly in favour of abolishing it/extending it to a month
15:25 < hayashi> with majority for abolishing it totally
15:25 < Kira0802> Why should something that's not intended to be made into a project have a tag on it?
15:25 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, ... why does that only apply to "alternative lanugages" ?
15:26 < cloudii> No, it's supposed to apply to all languages
15:26 < cloudii> Oni treats it that way
15:26 <&DarkoNeko> ok
15:26 < cloudii> at the very least
15:26 < krytyk> the problem is with existence of ATP imho
15:26 < cloudii> the problem is, is that ATP is not being used
15:26 < cloudii> for english projects
15:26 <&DarkoNeko> bit of pause again : should we use temporary +M with voicing of the speaker during explanation time ?
15:26 < Kira0802> yes
15:26 < krytyk> as teasers are there, people (incl me) prefer to make a teaser, and once it grows to normal volume size convert it to full project
15:26 < stellarroze> +M?
15:26 < Kira0802> don't forget to voice cloudii
15:26 < krytyk> so abolish ATP or teasers
15:26 < Lord-Simon> yes
15:26 < Lord-Simon> I'd like that to do
15:26 <&DarkoNeko> +m, only voice ad above may talk, it's so only the speaker , well, speak, during that time
15:27 <&DarkoNeko> ok, we'll do that starting the next point then
15:27 < cloudii> Observation: Nowadays, all of our new projects go through the Teaser Project pathway. Regardless of whether a new project really should be classified as a teaser, virtually all translators tag their new project pages with the Teaser tag. 
15:27 < cloudii> Translators tag the teaser tag regardless of their intent to continue, or not to continue the project
15:27 < cloudii> that's just an observation
15:27 < krytyk> What about abolishing ATP, and making some of its rules cover the teasers
15:28 < Kira0802> True, but why should all projects have ATP?
15:28 < Kira0802> all teasers*
15:28 <&DarkoNeko> should we make "teaser" an intermediary part of creating a project, then ?
15:28 < krytyk> one week to present a prologue
15:28 < krytyk> as a "teaser"
15:28 < krytyk> teasers are very short so a month is not needed
15:28 < Vallor> teasers and new projects are not the same thing...
15:28 < Kira0802> I say you have the content before making the page for a teaser
15:28 < krytyk> teasers often turn into full project, more often than ATP turn into new projects
15:28 < cloudii> krytyk, the one week thing, is that do you really plan to delete a page that has less than prologue?
15:28 < Kira0802> you must have*
15:29 < Lord-Simon> But the teaser and a new project are treated as one
15:29 < cloudii> If someone uploads 25%, do we really want to delete the page?
15:29 < cloudii> just because it fails to fulfil the 1 week requirement?
15:29 < Lord-Simon> That what it might look to the person out there.
15:29 < hayashi> if I may interrupt
15:29 < cloudii> because that's what the rule implies
15:29 < krytyk> 25%, is 4 lines of text very often
15:29 < Lord-Simon> Go on, hayashi.
15:29 < Kira0802> ehhh
15:29 -!- mode/#baka-tsuki [+v Lord-Simon] by DarkoNeko
15:29 < hayashi> teasers are supposed to entice newbie translators into picking up a project
15:30 -!- mode/#baka-tsuki [-vvv cautr`off Gosha Kanzar] by DarkoNeko
15:30 < hayashi> after being 'teased' by a small portion
15:30 < hayashi> krtyk
15:30 < hayashi> what you're proposing isn't a teaser
15:30 < cloudii> that was the original intention of the teaser initiative
15:30 < hayashi> it's a full project you're committing to
15:30 <+Lord-Simon> Yes, that is correct.
15:30 < hayashi> because you intend to continue
15:30 < krytyk> yeah, I know that. The case is that its mainly teasers that turn into normal projects
15:30 < krytyk> ATP isn't used very often
15:30 < hayashi> so far
15:30 < krytyk> making those rules a problem
15:30 < hayashi> not a lot of teasers have made the leap into full projects
15:31 < Kira0802> Teasers turn into projects because without the tag, they don't get visibility.
15:31 < cloudii> the observation is that everyone uses the teaser tag is an intermediate to full project nowadays
15:31 < cloudii> Here's how I see it:
15:31 < krytyk> thus my point is to merge ATP with teasers and create a separate set of rules.
15:31 < cloudii> add Teaser as an official intermediate in the workflow
15:31 -!- rock96 [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:31 < cloudii> or merge/delete ATP tag with teasers
15:31 < Kira0802> long time no see, rock
15:31 < hayashi> I think
15:31 < hayashi> teasers should remain as so
15:31 < rock96> Hi to all, yeah
15:32 < hayashi> but the ATP tag should be moderated/enforced more
15:32 < cloudii> The issue is that, there's no way for the ATP tag to be moderated
15:32 < krytyk> if ATP is moderated, people will just continue as teasers until they qualify to full projects
15:32 < hayashi> if you integrate teasers into the project flow
15:32 < krytyk> thus making ATP oboslete
15:32 < cloudii> because the assumption, currently
15:32 < cloudii> is that all translators claim their uploaded translation is a teaser
15:32 < hayashi> it makes people assume every teaser will become a full project eventually
15:32 < cloudii> rendering ATP unnecessary
15:32 <&DarkoNeko> hayashi, that seems to be the goal of the teasers, tho
15:33 < hayashi> hm
15:33 < cloudii> that's why 2/67 projects in the teaser section have ATP tags
15:33 < Misogi> If I may say a word, I saw some English projects with the ATP tag, to make sure that they end in the sidebar.
15:33 < krytyk> translators try to avoid the regulations
15:33 < Kira0802> I think teasers can stay the way they are. ATP tag should be put only when a project meets requirements to become a full project (Basically, just for the mods to approve the project), and the one-week thing should be deleted
15:33 < hayashi> maybe I didn't phrase myself properly
15:33 < krytyk> you dont fight it with more regulations
15:33 < hayashi> like
15:33 < hayashi> teaser projects should only be tagged as teasers
15:33 < cloudii> So, at the very least, it looks like we're in favor of redefining the ATP tag
15:33 < Lery> Kira0802 +1
15:34 < hayashi> if the translator has no intention of continuing
15:34 < hayashi> because if he does intend to
15:34 < cloudii> I disagree with you hayashi
15:34 <&DarkoNeko> ah, that differentiation
15:34 < hayashi> then it's not really a teaser anymore
15:34 < krytyk> sounds good, so a translator tags the series with ATP, and a mod checks if it qualifies
15:34 < zzhk> the deletion warning is kind of misleading, because projects are sometimes tagged ATP for lacking a registration page
15:34 < cloudii> because the teasers tag is the only way to bring visibility to teasers
15:34 < krytyk> thus teaser + tag = full project (if fulfills the reqs)
15:34 < cloudii> ^that works too
15:35 < Misogi> ^ Yeah, it's not a bad idea.
15:35 < Kira0802> hayashi, the problem is that if you don't tage your series a teaser, you have no visibility in the sidebar
15:35 < cloudii> there are many solutions to this that I think works well
15:35 < cloudii> Kira +1
15:35 < hayashi> aren't we getting rid of the sidebar?
15:35 <+Lord-Simon> That is for later
15:35 <&DarkoNeko> yes. 
15:35 <+Lord-Simon> wait
15:35 < cloudii> We're replacing it with links to categories
15:35 <&DarkoNeko> well, changing it
15:35 < cloudii> The only way for any new project to get visibility
15:35 < cloudii> is to either be in the English category
15:35 < cloudii> *English Teaser
15:35 < cloudii> or Light Novel Category
15:36 < cloudii> That's the rationale for most translators to tag teasers
15:36 < cloudii> when their project has not been approved yet
15:36 < hayashi> ok
15:36 < hayashi> but if
15:36 < Kira0802> So a pending project without a teaser tag becomes something like Moku-something Alice
15:36 < hayashi> we are getting rid of the deadline
15:36 < hayashi> translators won't have the need to tag their work as a teaser anymore, right?
15:36 < cloudii> No, they do
15:36 < hayashi> since they won't be under any deadline
15:36 < krytyk> aren't we changing the purpose of atp?
15:36 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes or no to remove the deadline in the teaser.
15:37 < cloudii> there is no deadline for teaser...
15:37 < cloudii> there's a deadline for ATP
15:37 < krytyk> one sec simon, we discussed more so let's make a more complete conclusion for a vote
15:37 < rock96> ^what he said
15:37 <+Lord-Simon> ATP, sorry.
15:37 < Kira0802> Yea for ATP
15:37 < hayashi> ok
15:37 < hayashi> uh
15:37 <&DarkoNeko> people, it doesn't look like we will arrive to an agreement for the teaser and ATP thing today. I think it would be better for a small group to work on it on the side and then propose it on the forum/another meeting once it's ready
15:37 < hayashi> I'm gonna type out what I think
15:37 < krytyk> no. Cloudii, formulate a statement
15:37 <&DarkoNeko> we're having a good discussion and all, but at this rate we won't have time for any of the other subjects
15:37 < victorrama> True
15:37 < cloudii> um
15:38 < hayashi> teasers should be kept as teasers, but the atp deadline should be removed so that future translators have more flexibility
15:38 < hayashi> does that make sense?
15:38 < cloudii> We should remove the 1 week deadline for ATP
15:38 < Kira0802> yes, hayashi
15:38 < cloudii> require ATP to be tagged with all new project pages
15:38 < Vallor> Are you saying that teasers and new projects are the same thing? New projects should be in the LN category and teasers in a teaser category, that's all.
15:38 < cloudii> including Teaser pages
15:38 < cloudii> so the purpose of ATP
15:38 < cloudii> is for a mod to check the page
15:38 < hayashi> oh I'm saying teasers are seperate from new projects
15:38 < hayashi> any new project will have to be to tagged with ATP
15:38 < cloudii> but if the page is satisfactory, ATP can be removed
15:38 < hayashi> ^
15:38 < cloudii> the teaser tag is kept
15:38 < cloudii> that's my proposal
15:38 < krytyk> mm, ATP for all projects that have at least 1 chapter not including prologue. And then the ATP pages are to be judged by a mod.
15:39 < krytyk> isnt that better cloudi
15:39 < Kira0802> @Vallor Pending approval are reffered as New projects here, vallor
15:39 < Lery> Actually the teaser tag should mean that it was translated just for fun and it's there to be discovered but that nobody is currently working further on it, isn't it ?
15:39 < cloudii> krytyk's suggestion is also satisfactory
15:39 < Vallor> ATP should be removed, or be added on new projects only. Teaser shouldn't have to be tagged as pending approval...
15:39 < cloudii> @Lery, that was the original definition, but practically that isn't the case anymore
15:39 < Kira0802> @Vallor or rather, those that are created but don't meet the requirements
15:39 < krytyk> thus teasers be teasers and can have just prologue, and ATP is a sign for mod to judge a series.
15:39 < krytyk> that wants to become a full project.
15:39 < cloudii> krytyk's proposal I'm in favor with as well
15:40 < Lery> @cloudii Well, isn't it because of that time limit we're wanting to remove ?
15:40 < hayashi> I'm ok with that
15:40 < cloudii> I would like to remove the time limit as well
15:40 < krytyk> the time limit is unneccesary then
15:40 < cloudii> Someone with supervisor access needs to rewrite the entire tag
15:40 < krytyk> as it already has 1 chapter when the tag is put on.
15:40 < Misogi> May someone clarify the changes and launch the vote?
15:40 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png
15:40 < Kira0802> OK, so remove time limit, use tag just for upgrade.
15:40 < Kira0802> Teasers stay teasers.
15:40 < hayashi> sounds good
15:40 < cloudii> 1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project
15:40 < krytyk> yup
15:41 < cloudii> 2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending
15:41 < cloudii> 3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis approve
15:41 < cloudii> that's it
15:41 <+Lord-Simon> yes
15:41 <+Lord-Simon> Or any other Supervisor
15:41 < krytyk> simplifies a ton, and no hanging pending projects in a separate category.
15:41 < cloudii> Can we vote to agree?
15:41 < Kira0802> OK
15:41 < hayashi> simon call for a vote?
15:41 < Misogi> May I add something?
15:42 <+Lord-Simon> We are now voting for cloudii's summary
15:42 < Vallor> By full project, you mean a series completely translated?
15:42 <&DarkoNeko> no
15:42 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes if you agree, no if you disagree
15:42 < cloudii> full project, meaning like "sidebar project"
15:42 < Kira0802> No, a full project=project in the sidebar
15:42 <&DarkoNeko> okay, please repeat exact what we are voting for, cloudii
15:42 < Vallor> Okay, so I'm agree
15:42 < cloudii> : 1). Teaser tag is the default tag to be put on new project
15:42 <&DarkoNeko> then everyone vote
15:42 < cloudii> : 2). When the teaser reaches the requirements for full project, translator tags Pending
15:42 < cloudii> 3). Oni/DarkoNeko/Vaelis approve
15:42 < cloudii> (or some supervisor)
15:43 <+Lord-Simon> Vote yes or no
15:43 < Kira0802> Yea
15:43 < cloudii> Yes
15:43 < Cthaeh> yes
15:43 < krytyk> yes
15:43 < rock96> Yep
15:43 < hayashi> yes
15:43 < stellarroze> yes
15:43 <+Lord-Simon> if you vote no, explain yourself after the vote
15:43 < Code-Zero> yes
15:43 < Vallor> Yes but what's happened to the deadline?
15:43 < Misogi> Yes (although the Alt. Languages situation should be clarified).
15:43 < hayashi> it will be gone
15:43 < cloudii> We'll discuss that next
15:43 <&DarkoNeko> removed
15:43 <+Lord-Simon> Deadlinewill beremoved
15:43 < cloudii> Okay
15:43 < cloudii> that works too
15:43 < cloudii> <3
15:43 <&DarkoNeko> yes
15:43 -!- Nurin [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:43 <&DarkoNeko> well, the point 3 is a bit of pickle, but it seems glboally good
15:43 < Lery> yes
15:43 < krytyk> deadline is removed, as the tag is only to be put after 1 chapter (prologue aside) is to be already finished.
15:44 < Lery> Any supervisor can handle point 3 I thinl
15:44 < cloudii> Onto next point?
15:44 < Lery> Any supervisor can handle point 3 I think*
15:44 <+Lord-Simon> yes
15:44 < Vallor> thAgree with Lery
15:44 < cloudii> Point 3 is like this now, because only those individuals ahve sidebar access
15:44 < Vallor> Agree*
15:44 < Kira0802> ^
15:44 < cloudii> but if we lose the sidebar, I'm in favor for any supervisor approval
15:44 < Lery> @Cloudii, let's go. Shouldn't we talk about sidebar modification ?
15:44 < Kira0802> it's not anyone who can put projects on the sidebar atm
15:44 < zzhk> so for substandard projects (e.g. no translated content), the deletion template (http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Category:Speedy_Deletion) will be slapped on instead of ATP﹖
15:45 < cloudii> Thank you zzhk, I agree with that too
15:45 < Misogi> There's the exception of Alt. Lang., where supervisors handle that.
15:45 <&DarkoNeko> should't it be normal deletion, ratehr than speedy ? actually, do we have a normal deletion process ?
15:45 < hayashi> I'm good with that
15:45 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014#teaser_status_.2F_ATP alright, it's written down
15:45 < cloudii> Also, can we assign someone
15:45 <+Lord-Simon> No we don'T
15:45 < hayashi> deleting without warning
15:45 < cloudii> to rewrite this:
15:45 < cloudii> http://i.imgur.com/JC6zsLM.png
15:45 < cloudii> It's protected
15:45 < hayashi> might be vandalism
15:45 <+Lord-Simon> we should discuss the deletion process
15:45 < Kira0802> Darko can
15:45 < hayashi> or not give the guy a fair chance to upload stuff
15:45 <+Lord-Simon> but that is later for the forum
15:46 <&DarkoNeko> we'll do the deed later
15:46 < Kira0802> nxt point?
15:46 < victorrama> Yes
15:46 < cloudii> Okay
15:46 <&DarkoNeko> alright. What is the next point, then ?
15:46 < cloudii> Point 3
15:46 < cloudii> There are number of instances int he rules
15:46 < cloudii> that require members to "email" supervisors
15:46 < cloudii> .......
15:46 < hayashi> this is a related point
15:46 < cloudii> Remove all references thereof 
15:46 < hayashi> but a lot of the supervisors listed are no longer active
15:46 <+Lord-Simon> yes, looks like it
15:46 < cloudii> of that form of contact
15:47 < Misogi> I agree on making a single page for contact.
15:47 <+Lord-Simon> but if we look at the discussion before
15:47 < krytyk> either forums, direct (irc) contact, or PM
15:47 <+Lord-Simon> we can remove that part
15:47 < Kira0802> Darko
15:47 < zzhk> speaking of "supervisors", we should prioritize the issue of wiki supervisor protection rights
15:47 <&DarkoNeko> let's do it properly people
15:47 <+Lord-Simon> as any supervisor will go through newly created project
15:47 <+Lord-Simon> if they have the tags
15:47 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, starting the vote ? there's not much to discuss here XD
15:47 < cloudii> Actually, I really want to echo zzhk here (if DarkoNeko is capable of doing anything abou tit)
15:47 <+Lord-Simon> Wait
15:48 < Vallor> Misogi is right. A single page of contact is good enough.
15:48 <+Lord-Simon> We are talking about a mail-list creating
15:48 <+Lord-Simon> *creation.
15:48 < cloudii> Um, acutally yeah
15:48 <&DarkoNeko> argh, what
15:48 <+Lord-Simon> mailing list
15:48 < cloudii> DarkoNeko I neglected to explain half of my thing
15:48 <&DarkoNeko> I don't want that, i hate mails
15:48 < Lery> @zzhk, we're waiting for TLG before talking about those administrative problems ;)
15:48 < cloudii> so, the issue is
15:48 <&DarkoNeko> no way i'm getting on another mailing list
15:48 < cloudii> currently members are told to contact "A supervisor"
15:48 < cloudii> preferably all of them
15:48 < cloudii> but we all know that they usually only contact one
15:49 < cloudii> but if a translator looking for project approval
15:49 <+Lord-Simon> That's why a mailing list
15:49 < cloudii> posts on TLG's talk page
15:49 < cloudii> clearly it's not going to get lookd at
15:49 <+Lord-Simon> or one mail, that sens to many
15:49 < Misogi> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made.", as Cloudii wrote in his topic.
15:49 < Kira0802> Can we just create a page on the Wiki for "Requests" or something?
15:49 < Lery> Yeah, that's a major problem.
15:49 <&DarkoNeko> no no no
15:49 <&DarkoNeko> not a mailing list. 
15:49 <+Lord-Simon> What else ?
15:49 < cloudii> If we have no mailing list, it's okay too
15:50 < Lery> We could either use a topic on the forum for that purpose, or a dedicated Wiki page, couldn't we ?
15:50 < Kira0802> So a wiki page?
15:50 <&DarkoNeko> especially when we can just have a maintenance page dedicated to that on the wiki
15:50 < cloudii> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made."
15:50 < Lery> Or even both
15:50 < cloudii> That's the proposal
15:50 <&DarkoNeko> yes, like a wikipedia's request for deletion, for maintenance, for adminship etc
15:50 < Kira0802> Then...we settle for a wiki page?
15:50 < rock96> um, what about simply forwarding people to the forum directly to make a thread?
15:50 < cloudii> Registration issues with forums
15:50 < cloudii> captcha
15:50 < hayashi> forum wiki integration is a seprate issue
15:50 <&DarkoNeko> the more things directly on the wiki the better
15:50 < cloudii> "Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made."
15:50 < Lery> I think that we could go with both : one wiki page for wiki addicts and one forum page for forum addicts...
15:50 < cloudii> Anyone against this?
15:50 <+Lord-Simon> no
15:50 < Kira0802> No
15:50 <&DarkoNeko> no
15:51 <+Lord-Simon> two instances is bad
15:51 < Vallor> A 'Link here the project you would like to be approved' wiki page
15:51 < rock96> guests are allowed to make posts. And we're lurking around approving posts...
15:51 < Misogi> May I add something?
15:51 <+Lord-Simon> really bad
15:51 <+Lord-Simon> yes
15:51 < Kira0802> misogi, just say something lol, don't ask
15:51 < krytyk> Vallor, we already have decided ATP tag for that
15:51 < cloudii> ^^
15:51 < Lery> @Lord-Simon, I don't think so : there are as much supervisor on the forum as on the wiki...
15:51 < Misogi> We should divide it into sections (languages, approval...), and delete regularly the things once they're done.
15:51 < Vallor> krytyk:  Isn't it exactly the same issue? I'm lost...
15:51 < krytyk> its not
15:52 < victorrama> Most suoervisors do nothing
15:52 < cloudii> "Assign an individual to clean that page of off-topic and resolved material. "
15:52 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, can't be, I mean, i don't have a forum account
15:52 < krytyk> we're speaking about sueprvisors-only things to do
15:52 -!- mib_cfp1sj [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
15:52 < cloudii> Yes Misogi <3
15:52 < Misogi> Then I'm on the idea. Summary?
15:52 < krytyk> Protecting pages a prime example.
15:52 < cloudii> Yup
15:52 < cloudii> 1). Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor.
15:52 < Misogi> Protection -> Yes.
15:52 < cloudii> 2). Assign an individual to clean that page of off-topic and resolved material. (I'll even volunteer myself if no one wants to do it).
15:52 < cloudii> That's it
15:52 < Kira0802> Yea
15:53 <&DarkoNeko> the point 2 is a problem
15:53 < Lery> @DarkoNeko : it's not a problem, you'll handle the wiki request and the supervisors with forum account will handle the forum's ones...
15:53 < krytyk> the same person who grants the requests should delete it
15:53 < Misogi> ^
15:53 <+Lord-Simon> ^
15:53 < cloudii> That's fair too <3
15:53 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, that, yes
15:53 <+Lord-Simon> 1). Create a single location on the Wiki where administrative requests can be made. This should be at location that all sysops/supervisors monitor.
15:53 <&DarkoNeko> but for other stuff, having a pool of people rather than "an individual" is better
15:53 < Vallor> I'm agree with krytyk 
15:54 < cloudii> Sure, my wording was bad. My intent was just to say that the page needs to get cleaned
15:54 -!- BrokenTree [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:54 < Misogi> "I agree", Vallor.
15:54 < Lery> Having only one individual is always bad, we never know what may happen.
15:54 <+Lord-Simon>   2). Any supervisor that grants the ok to a request will delete the request.
15:54 <+Lord-Simon> *an ok
15:54 < cloudii> Motion for Simon's proposal?
15:54 < Vallor> Misogi: Sorry, I always make this mistake...
15:54 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, that's pretty much a given
15:54 <+Lord-Simon> yes
15:54 < Misogi> Yes.
15:54 < cloudii> yes
15:54 < Kira0802> Yea
15:54 < rock96> Yes.
15:54 <&DarkoNeko> agreed
15:54 < krytyk> y
15:55 < Lery> yes
15:55 < cloudii> Motion accepted… apparently?
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> YEs
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> it is accepted
15:55 < hayashi> yes
15:55 < Kira0802> Indeed...next point?
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> ^
15:55 < cloudii> Okay, I'm going to skip Point 4 on my outline
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> wait
15:55 -!- victorrama [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:55 < cloudii> that'll take too much time
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> just tell about point 4
15:55 <+Lord-Simon> for information
15:55 < Kira0802> ^
15:56 < cloudii> It's a bunch of topics that I suggested that we create rules for
15:56 < Kira0802> err
15:56 < Misogi> Since you gave the things to add...
15:56 < cloudii> for example, the Wiki lacks general behavior rules
15:56 -!- masoatwork [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
15:56 -!- masoatwork is now known as victorrama
15:56 < cloudii> Or well,
15:56 < Kira0802> let's move that to the forums then?
15:56 <&DarkoNeko> "don't be a dick or we'll ban you"
15:56 < cloudii> Well, do people want to discuss this?
15:56 < hayashi> no
15:56 < Misogi> No need.
15:56 < Kira0802> no
15:56 <&DarkoNeko> nah, let's skip
15:56 <+Lord-Simon> not here
15:56 < cloudii> Fair
15:56 <+Lord-Simon> not now
15:56 < cloudii> Part 2: Migrate all the Wiki rules from the Forums, and archive the old rules.
15:57 < Misogi> Er, you forgot #5
15:57 <+Lord-Simon> Hmmm....
15:57 < Lery> We can discuss it later on the forum, Cloudii
15:57 <+Lord-Simon> I would disagree.
15:57 < cloudii> Oh. Actually, imo, it's unecessary if sidebar gets scrapped
15:57 < cloudii> (point 5 thatis)
15:57 <&DarkoNeko> I never was fond of having anything like that on the forum
15:57 <&DarkoNeko> a wiki reader won't go there to look for rules
15:57 < cloudii> Simon, can you explain why you disagree?
15:57 < Kira0802> Forums rule to the Wiki or Wiki Rules in the forum to the WIki?
15:57 <+Lord-Simon> We can have two identical versions on forums and on the wiki
15:57 < Kira0802> there's a difference here
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15:58 < cloudii> Forum rules on forums, Wiki rules on Wiki
15:58 < cloudii> remove Wiki rules on forums
15:58 < Lery> Yeah that should be so.
15:58 <+Lord-Simon> Ah
15:58 <+Lord-Simon> yes
15:58 < Kira0802> Yea
15:58 <&DarkoNeko> hmm, then putting a link to the wiki page on the forum
15:58 < Vallor> agreed
15:58 <+Lord-Simon> That explains it.
15:58 < cloudii> Yes, DarkoNeko
15:58 < Misogi> ^
15:58 < Cthaeh> yes
15:58 < krytyk> I suggest we discuss mechanics first, behavioural rules other day
15:58 < Lery> yes
15:58 <+Lord-Simon> So, I guess we don't even need to vote.
15:59 < victorrama> ^
15:59 < cloudii> Sure
15:59 < cloudii> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Baka-Tsuki:Rules
15:59 < cloudii> DarkoNeko, could you move the rules here?
15:59 < cloudii> and then link this onto the sidebar?
15:59 < Lery> That's mechanic ^^ It's about rules' location, not about the rules themselves.
15:59 <&DarkoNeko> ask me again after the meeting
15:59 < cloudii> Sure
15:59 <&DarkoNeko> I'm not doing anything until we finished
15:59 < Misogi> Don't forget to put a link on the Main Page.
15:59 < Lery> Aren't you already taking the minutes ?
15:59 < cloudii> Last
15:59 < cloudii> Part 3: Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.
15:59 < cloudii> I just want official recognition for this
16:00 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, loosely, i'm only putting the votes
16:00 < cloudii> no writing being done here....
16:00 < krytyk> Not really an issue we need to discuss IMHO.
16:00 < Lery> I guess your multitasking has limits '^^
16:00 <&DarkoNeko> I'll try whoever is keeping logs to make a better version later
16:00 < cloudii> Can we get official recognition for the support of creating help pages?
16:00 < Lery> You have my approval Cloudii
16:00 < cloudii> yes/no
16:00 <+Lord-Simon> If I remember right, cloudii, you have made a page for that
16:00 < krytyk> well, yes
16:00 < Lery> Go ahead make us nice help pages ^^
16:00 <&DarkoNeko> ...does this REALLY need to be voted ? it seems like a given
16:00 <+Lord-Simon> ^
16:00 < Kira0802> Yea
16:00 < cloudii> I've never gotten direct approval from anyone… so....
16:00 < krytyk> thats what i said;
16:00 <&DarkoNeko> the dissent would be on what to put exactly on pages
16:00 <+Lord-Simon> just add it to the list that will be done
16:01 < cloudii> Cool, okay, that covers everything from my end
16:01 < Misogi> There's also the problem of visibility.
16:01 < Lery> yeah, if you had taken initiative to do it on your own, nobody would have complained ;)
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16:01 -!- wet [[email protected]] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:01 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, on a wiki, if you wait for approvals nothing ever gets done
16:01 < Misogi> Sure, there are rules, but if you can't find them easily...
16:01 <+Lord-Simon> Gonna mail TLG
16:01 <+Lord-Simon> *sigh*
16:02 < Kira0802> we'll just post there on the sidebar/main page, misogi
16:02 < Lery> Yeah, those help pages should be located so that you find them easily.
16:02 < krytyk> where does he live, lets raid him;
16:02 -!- xiiao [[email protected]] has quit []
16:02 < Misogi> Should be sleeping.
16:02 < Kira0802> i saw his phone number
16:02 < Lery> Ahahah, he's on the west cost, isn't he ?
16:02 < Kira0802> wanna call him?
16:02 <&DarkoNeko> let him sleep
16:02 < rock96> ...huh?
16:02 < Lery> Anybody has him on skype ?
16:03 < Kira0802> lolno
16:03 <&DarkoNeko> better no TLG than a very pissed TLG ^^;
16:03 < cloudii> I suppose this meeting will get rescheduled for another day for the other adminstrative stuff
16:03 < krytyk> though its going to be a pain if he turns out after everyone leaves
16:03 < hayashi> should take the time to settle the stuff that doesn't need tlg
16:03 <&DarkoNeko> well, i have a few points, but we already had discussed them on a smaller group and partially implemented them (until i got too busy ^^;)
16:03 <+Lord-Simon> no
16:03 <+Lord-Simon> I will be here
16:03 <+Lord-Simon> for the next few hours
16:04 <+Lord-Simon> I can look out for him
16:04 < cloudii> "Wrong link leading to the wiki's Copyrights page."
16:04 < cloudii> DarkoNeko can do that, right? 8D
16:04 < Kira0802> we'll just vote on issues and ask TLG to approve, and the decision belongs to him
16:04 <&DarkoNeko> yeah, that has little to do with TLG lol
16:04 < cloudii> We could do what Kira said too
16:04 <+Lord-Simon> ah
16:04 < Lery> Yeah, that's jsut a
16:04 < Lery> Yeah, that's just a ".net" at the bad place
16:04 < Misogi> Not really.
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16:05 <&DarkoNeko> yes, details of link change later, please
16:05 <+Lord-Simon> @DarkoNeko, do you have access to the blog ?
16:05 < cloudii> DarkoNeko, as a wiki sysop, can you assign usergroups powers or is that no?
16:05 < Misogi> Already written?
16:05 <+Lord-Simon> Of B-T ?
16:05 < Misogi> .*
16:05 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, I can assign people to select groups, but I cannot create new groups
16:05 -!- kry [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
16:06 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, not tha tI know of
16:06 < cloudii> Thanks, so you can't help us xD
16:06 < cloudii> Let's go to groups reorganization
16:06 < cloudii> rename exactly who to remove off the groups
16:06 < cloudii> and who to put on
16:06 < Lery> @Lord-Simon : I think Kira0802 has access to the blog...
16:06 < hayashi> that's more for forums, right?
16:06 < Misogi> Inactive members, that's a given.
16:06 <&DarkoNeko> defining inactivity. is that "over a year" ?
16:06 < Misogi> I'd rather say 6 months.
16:06 <+Lord-Simon> So, we are now discussing the Users of certain groups
16:06 < kry> its "ever since forever"
16:06 <&DarkoNeko> and condition for them to get the right back if they come back, as well
16:06 < cloudii> We're also talking about forum usergroups
16:07 <+Lord-Simon> and the rearrangement ?
16:07 <&DarkoNeko> eh, do that on the forum, I'm only interested in the wiki :D
16:07 < zzhk> I think DarkoNeko misunderstood cloudii's question on wiki user groups, rather than creating new groups﹐ can you modify a group's powers?
16:07 < cloudii> brb
16:07 -!- krytyk [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:07 < Misogi> Well, remove all inactive members from all groups.
16:07 < Lery> Why remove them ? Just add new people if old people go MIA
16:07 -!- kry is now known as krytyk
16:07 < Misogi> In case they get hacked.
16:08 < Misogi> That's a decent reason.
16:08 < Vallor> Inactive members -> people who didn't posted any work since 6 months at least, or people we don't have news since a while?
16:08 <&DarkoNeko> zzhk, not that I know of
16:08 < Lery> Well, from that POV, I think it's true the more people with rights, the more risks we have that someone get hacked.
16:08 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, it's so people don't ask inactive to do things
16:08 <+Lord-Simon> Well, I can edit Digital Editors, Project Editors and tsukaima legion
16:08 <&DarkoNeko> but yeah, there's also the hacking possibility
16:09 <+Lord-Simon> well
16:09 <&DarkoNeko> hmm
16:09 < krytyk> wait. separate wiki and forums issues
16:09 <&DarkoNeko> anyway, let's simplify the motion for now.
16:09 < krytyk> now we are talking about wiki
16:09 < rock96> Judging by what I've seen, no need to discuss Tsukaima Legion
16:09 < zzhk> is there any incentive to hack B-T wiki accounts, however?
16:09 < krytyk> forums later.
16:09 < Lery> @Lord-Simon : isn't that on the forum ?
16:09 <+Lord-Simon> yes
16:09 < Lery> ok
16:09 <+Lord-Simon> are we talking about the wiki ?
16:09 <&DarkoNeko> zzhk, the same as hacking wikiepdia admin account, but people do
16:09 < Misogi> A spammer with a hacked account will cause more damage.
16:10 < Lery> Are we discussing about forum's groups or wiki's currently ?
16:10 < Misogi> Wiki.
16:10 < Misogi> Forum is kept for TLG.
16:10 < Vallor> Misogi: A ban wouldn't be enough?
16:10 < cloudii> I see no particular reason to remove inactive Wiki supervisors, if we have a single location for placing administrative requests
16:10 < Misogi> You have to clean up the mess.
16:10 < Lery> Actually Oni has the needed rights to do the needed modifications on the forum...
16:11 < Kira0802> cloudii is right
16:11 <&DarkoNeko> I feel we should have a minimum activity setting for removal, nonetheless. even if it's a long long time
16:11 < Vallor> Misogi: You just have to delete all the recent changes...
16:11 < hayashi> it's more for decluttering
16:11 <+Lord-Simon> well, there is the http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:ActiveUsers
16:11 <+Lord-Simon> but it's limited to the last 30 days
16:11 < cloudii> that's one month activity
16:11 < Vallor> remove*
16:11 < cloudii> I was just reminded of something....
16:12 < cloudii> Do we have protocol for dealing with inactive project supervisors?
16:12 < hayashi> nope
16:12 < Kira0802> no
16:12 <&DarkoNeko> none
16:12 <+Lord-Simon> No
16:12 < cloudii> okay, do we want protocol?
16:12 <&DarkoNeko> I do
16:12 <+Lord-Simon> Yes
16:12 -!- victorrama [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:12 < Kira0802> RIP Nera. ;_;
16:12 < cloudii> Okay, I'll propose something on the spot
16:12 <+Lord-Simon> Protocol is always good
16:12 <&DarkoNeko> since there wil lbe dissent on the exact duration, we should take the longest for now
16:12 < cloudii> 6 months inactivity is definition for inactvity
16:13 < rock96> all hail commie wiki
16:13 < cloudii> Someone who would like the position
16:13 <&DarkoNeko> I propose that anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose his right
16:13 < cloudii> should contact a Wiki Supervisor
16:13 < cloudii> The Wiki Supervisor
16:13 <+Lord-Simon> hello
16:13 < cloudii> can judge whether the Project Supervisor
16:13 < cloudii> should be replaced
16:13 <+Lord-Simon> or sysop ?
16:13 < Kira0802> kk
16:13 < cloudii> the end
16:13 <&DarkoNeko> and that, should they come back withing a year after that, could regain those rights on simple demand
16:13 < Vallor> cloudii: what's your definition of 'inactivity'?
16:13 < cloudii> Hmm...
16:13 <&DarkoNeko> no action on wiki
16:13 <&DarkoNeko> none at all
16:14 < cloudii> I think that, anyone should be able to place a request
16:14 < hayashi> what's the current setting anyway
16:14 < cloudii> to be instated over an apparent Project Supervisor
16:14 < hayashi> the project super defaults to the head translator?
16:14 < cloudii> but for reference of the Administration
16:14 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, you're kinda assumed we have a limited number of seats
16:14 < Kira0802> no action, no sign of presence, no demand of absence
16:14 <&DarkoNeko> -ed+ing
16:14 <+Lord-Simon> brb
16:14 < cloudii> @hayashi, nothing. There name just stays there.
16:15 < hayashi> the 2nd thing is
16:15 < hayashi> what rights do project supers have
16:15 < cloudii> All rights with regards to the project...
16:15 < cloudii> which is a lot
16:15 < Vallor> Kira0802: No sign of presence on the wiki or on the forum too?
16:15 < Kira0802> yeah
16:15 < Kira0802> boh
16:15 < cloudii> For example: "British English vs American English, etc"
16:16 < Vallor> Kira0802:  ok, thx
16:16 < cloudii> Okay, so we can just say:
16:16 <&DarkoNeko> uh, so, we include the forum ? meh
16:16 < cloudii> 1) If a Project Supervisor has no sign of presence on the wiki or on the forum too, a translator can request to become to new project supervisor
16:16 <+Lord-Simon> Darko
16:16 <&DarkoNeko> me
16:16 <+Lord-Simon> Go create an account
16:16 <&DarkoNeko> no.
16:16 <+Lord-Simon> I'll answer the question
16:16 <+Lord-Simon> GO
16:17 < Kira0802> on the wiki and on the forums*, cloudii
16:17 < hayashi> lol
16:17 <&DarkoNeko> i have nothing to do there
16:17 < hayashi> neko
16:17 < Kira0802> oh wait
16:17 < Kira0802> misread
16:17 < Kira0802> w/e
16:17 < cloudii> (I just copy pasted) lol
16:17 <&DarkoNeko> for me, there is only the wiki, and IRC
16:17 <+Lord-Simon> damn cat
16:17 <+Lord-Simon> what if I give you an acc ?
16:17 <&DarkoNeko> wikipedia ain't need no stinking forums
16:17 <&DarkoNeko> no.
16:17 < Vallor> If you're active on the wiki, that's enough.
16:17 <&DarkoNeko> I won't use it. I don't have time to read forums
16:18 < Kira0802> No sign of presence means no one has seen you
16:18 < Kira0802> this includes forums and wiki
16:18 < cloudii> Forum & Wiki or Wiki Only?
16:18 <&DarkoNeko> well, before that, let's do a more genera thing
16:18 < cloudii> vote
16:18 <&DarkoNeko> no, no, no, that's too precise
16:18 < Kira0802> Forum & Wiki 
16:18 < cloudii> DarkoNeko explain?
16:18 < Vallor> I'd add social networks/mails as well...
16:18 <&DarkoNeko> so, starting with basics : 
16:19 < Kira0802> If a supervisor's not there on the wiki and just on the forums, you can throw a PM at him
16:19 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, we were talking about inactivity in general, now you're on proejcts supervisors on particular
16:19 < cloudii> project supervisors in general
16:19 < cloudii> in this instance
16:19 < cloudii> because there's only one position for it
16:19 <&DarkoNeko> "anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose his rights on the wiki."
16:19 < cloudii> Are we voting?
16:19 <+Lord-Simon> as a project supervisors
16:19 <+Lord-Simon> *r
16:20 < Kira0802> project admins/supervisors
16:20 <+Lord-Simon> Hmm...
16:20 <&DarkoNeko> do project supervisors have physical rights ?
16:20 < Kira0802> a random editor doesn't need to have his rights revoked, since we don't care
16:20 <&DarkoNeko> I'm talking about wiki groups ^^;
16:20 < Kira0802> project editors can lock pages
16:20 < cloudii> @DarkoNeko. There is no project supervisor wiki group
16:20 < Kira0802> supervisors*
16:20 <&DarkoNeko> then they're on  a particular group
16:20 < Kira0802> @cloudii there is
16:20 < Kira0802> well
16:20 < cloudii> there's a wiki supervisor group
16:20 < Kira0802> just "supervisor" though
16:21 <&DarkoNeko> let's do that on a few sets, then. 1) general activity 2) specifically for project supervisor replacement ?
16:21 < cloudii> yes, and we've taken tht�at to mean "Adminstration"
16:21 < Lery> Actually a lot of Project Supervisor aren't even Wiki Supervisors...
16:21 < cloudii> ^^
16:21 < Kira0802> that's not intended 
16:21 < Kira0802> though.
16:21 <&DarkoNeko> all the more reason to have 2 separate motions
16:21 < cloudii> Can we start with DarkoNeko's motion?
16:21 < hayashi> wiki super and project super are two different level right
16:21 <+Lord-Simon> Well, because the projects have two things
16:22 <+Lord-Simon> as supervisor and an admin
16:22 <+Lord-Simon> in name only
16:22 < Misogi> We should rename it with "Project Manager"
16:22 < Lery> What's the point in having an Project Admin and a Project Supervisor, by the way ? What's the differences between both ?
16:22 < krytyk> ^Like misogi says
16:22 < Lery> -an+a
16:22 < krytyk> Supervisor is unclear at this point
16:22 < cloudii> Imo, project supervisor should not have to be an official member of administration
16:22 < hayashi> project admin is a carry over from the old days I think
16:22 < Vallor> Yeah, administrators and supervisors are a big mess, especially for Alt. laguages
16:22 < krytyk> there are wiki supervisors, and project supervisors
16:22 < Kira0802> Alt. languages are a big mess
16:22 < cloudii> I would like project supervisor to be the senior/leading translator
16:22 <&DarkoNeko> we're drfiting away again ._.
16:22 <+Lord-Simon> For me, as I see it.
16:22 < Kira0802> it's not about supervisors/admins for alt projects
16:23 < krytyk> Okay, can I write out few problems and possible solutions?
16:23 < Lery> And the project admin to be someone with Wiki Supervisor Rights ?
16:23 < stellarroze> my oh my
16:23 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, a bit later~
16:23 < Kira0802> fuck
16:23 < Kira0802> this is getting confusing
16:23 < krytyk> its for this topic~
16:23 < stellarroze> merge project supervisors and administrators
16:23 <+Lord-Simon> The project admin is a person who is responsible for the project and that the guidelines of the project are "used/enforced".
16:23 <&DarkoNeko> arg, mergin and renaming LATER
16:23 < Lery> ^+1
16:23 < stellarroze> into one position
16:23 < Kira0802> they are meant for different things
16:23 < Misogi> To avoid confusion, "Project Sup. -> Project Manager".
16:23 < Misogi> Can be anyone.
16:23 <&DarkoNeko> the subject is inactivity and then project supervisor replacement for now
16:23 < Vallor> Admins and supervisors should be a single group renamed on 'project manager'
16:24 <+Lord-Simon> The supervisor is a person who can be contacted and knows some details about that project.
16:24 <&DarkoNeko> all the rest is for after
16:24 < krytyk> we talk about Wiki supervisors or project supervisors darko
16:24 < krytyk> thats the peoint
16:24 < krytyk> point*
16:24 < Kira0802> Imagine the difference of wiki right an editor has in comparison with a TLer. Now, change editor to admin and TLer to supervisor
16:24 < krytyk> make it clear
16:24 < Kira0802> that's how I see the diff
16:24 <&DarkoNeko> I'm talking about inactivity
16:24 <+Lord-Simon> Better is that the Supervisor, is a real supervisor and can lock and protect pages
16:24 < Lery> Inactivity was already well defined I think...
16:24 < krytyk> yes, but you mean supervisors with rights, or project supervisors
16:24 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, but not voted
16:24 < Lery> Lord-Simon +1
16:24 < cloudii> I disagree with Simon
16:25 < Kira0802> Can we just merge Project supervisors with Wiki supervisors?
16:25 < Lery> But the Project Admin, right ?
16:25 <+Lord-Simon> No
16:25 <&DarkoNeko> krytyk, the first point is anyone being in a right group on the wiki, the 2nd point will be about local project (LN) managers
16:25 < krytyk> no
16:25 < krytyk> exactly
16:25 < cloudii> because there's a lot of translators who would like to manage their projects
16:25 <&DarkoNeko> so, let's get the first point ou t of the way, please
16:25 < krytyk> so you talk about wiki supervisors and their inactivity
16:25 < krytyk> now we can vote.
16:25 < cloudii> Actually, I favor going back to DarkoNeko's topic
16:25 <&DarkoNeko> not wiki supervisor. any group with more right than the defaulty
16:25 < Lery> The Project Supervisor becomes Project Manager and the Project Admin has to have Supervisors' rights... 
16:26 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Special:ListGroupRights <- we have all those groups
16:26 < Lery> What's the point about voting to define inactivity ???
16:26 < Vallor> What exactly are we talking about right now? About groups or inactivity?
16:26 <&DarkoNeko> so
16:26 < cloudii> Simon, you're the chair ;)
16:26 < rock96> Shuffling with editors and translators is going to be the pain...
16:26 <+Lord-Simon> Ok
16:26 -!- nanodesuyo [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
16:26 <+Lord-Simon> First of all
16:27 <+Lord-Simon> we are voting for the inactivity period
16:27 < cloudii> Okay, DarkoNeko, can you repeat what we're voting for?
16:27 <&DarkoNeko> "anyone with over a year of inactivity will lose their special rights on the wiki."
16:27 < cloudii> Can we define special rights?
16:27 < Vallor> I don't like the '2 groups' idea...
16:27 <+Lord-Simon> one thing I wanted to say
16:28 -!- masoatwork [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
16:28 -!- masoatwork is now known as victorrama
16:28 <+Lord-Simon> do we really want a year inactivity ?
16:28 <&DarkoNeko> any group they were put in (editor, supervisor, etc)
16:28 -!- Gwilthyunman [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
16:28 < krytyk> anyone above user
16:28 < Vallor> 6 months aren't enough?
16:28 < Kira0802>  special rights on the wiki.-->Project supervisor/admins
16:28 < hayashi> ^
16:28 <+Lord-Simon> My point is
16:28 <&DarkoNeko> Lord-Simon, it's purposelly large for now
16:28 <+Lord-Simon> It is.
16:28 <+Lord-Simon> Because
16:28 < krytyk> 6 months... unless they mentioned being away prior to that
16:28 <&DarkoNeko> I'm fairly sure we have people with 4 years od inactivity in those groups
16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 1. The passwords on the wiki are weak
16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 2
16:29 <&DarkoNeko> even wikipedia gives a 12 months period
16:29 <+Lord-Simon> 2. There is no password change enforcement.
16:29 <&DarkoNeko> both the french and the english version, as far as I know
16:29 < cloudii> Okay, so can I make a proposal?
16:29 <+Lord-Simon> go on
16:29 < Vallor> DarkoNeko: Everyone don't post everyday on Wikipedia...
16:29 < cloudii> 1). One year of inactivty = loss of physical wiki rights
16:29 < cloudii> 2). If you end up coming back, talk to a sysop to be reinstated
16:30 <&DarkoNeko> Vallor, wikipedia admins are supposed to be active epopel
16:30 < Kira0802> fine
16:30 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, exactly
16:30 < cloudii> vote?
16:30 <&DarkoNeko> approve
16:30 < Kira0802> I can agree on that
16:30 < Kira0802> Yea
16:30 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, vote
16:30 < Cthaeh> vote yes
16:30 < rock96> yes
16:30 < Lery> yes
16:30 < hayashi> mondai nai
16:30 < krytyk> y
16:30 <&DarkoNeko> vote y
16:30 < Vallor> yes
16:30 < victorrama> Yea
16:30 <+Lord-Simon> yes, even if I'm sceptical
16:31 < Vallor> (I'm sure 6 months are good enough though)
16:31 < Kira0802> (Same)
16:31 < cloudii> (I personally don't care)
16:31 < Vallor> ^^
16:31 < rock96> (Not really)
16:31  * DarkoNeko thinks he already has been inactive for 6 months
16:31 < cloudii> xD but can we move along?
16:31 < rock96> lol
16:31 < Vallor> You can
16:31 <+Lord-Simon> Vote :  all approve
16:31 <+Lord-Simon> lol
16:31 < Misogi> Yes
16:32 <&DarkoNeko> well, not recently but somewhere between now and 2006
16:32 <+Lord-Simon> yes
16:32 < cloudii> okay, now onto the topic of the project/wiki supervisors........
16:32 < Kira0802> You can mark the length with an asterisk if it can be debated
16:32 <+Lord-Simon> Nect point ?
16:32  * Lery laught
16:32 <&DarkoNeko> so, secondary inactivity point, about the project leaders
16:32 < cloudii> OH right forgot
16:32 < cloudii> DarkoNeko's thing xD
16:32  * DarkoNeko blushes
16:32 <&DarkoNeko> what thing ?
16:32  * DarkoNeko hides
16:32 <+Lord-Simon> black thing
16:32  * Lord-Simon blushes
16:32 < cloudii> Okay: we left off on this
16:33 < Vallor> ...
16:33 < cloudii> inactivity defined as: Wiki only or total presence (including social media)
16:33 < Misogi> Total.
16:33 <&DarkoNeko> oh
16:33 <&DarkoNeko> uh. 
16:33 < Misogi> I mean, there may be reasons.
16:33 <&DarkoNeko> let's keep that vague
16:33 < Kira0802> dunno for social media
16:33 <&DarkoNeko> let's say forum and wiki both count
16:33 < cloudii> I'm for keeping it vague xD
16:34 < Kira0802> i'm not going to add a random guy on Facebook to talk to him about BT
16:34 < Misogi> "Any lack of presence"
16:34 <+Lord-Simon> Reachability
16:34 <&DarkoNeko> but ... well, social media, as in chatting with them on facebook or twitter ?  that's stretching it
16:34 < Kira0802> even though I'm already doing it.
16:34 <+Lord-Simon> that's what we are talking about
16:34 < Lery> Let's say you're active as long as you're sometimes on any BT-media...
16:34 < krytyk> as long as you show signs of life
16:34 < krytyk> lets leave it ambigious
16:34 < krytyk> but everyone knwos what it means
16:34 < Kira0802> Someone can check inactivity
16:34 < krytyk> lets not overcomplicate
16:34 < Lery> Yeah
16:34 <&DarkoNeko> that seems like stretching it
16:34 < cloudii> 1). If a Project Supervisor/Manager appears to be inactive
16:34 < Misogi> Or unless it was told beforehand.
16:35 <&DarkoNeko> we can easily check activity with the last post on the forum, or last edit on the wiki
16:35 <&DarkoNeko> but anything else if but a fuzzy thing, it's not hard data
16:35 < cloudii> 2). A translator may put in a request with Adminsitration, to be instated as the new Project Supervisor
16:35 < Kira0802> Let's settle for "has shown no sign of life"
16:35 < cloudii> and leave it to sysops/admins to decide
16:35 < Vallor> My point is inactivity should be 'people we don't have news since X months'
16:35 < cloudii> on a case-by case basis
16:35 < krytyk> lets discuss the subjects inactivity when we come down to it
16:35 < Lery> We could add in the rule that the said person is first asked through PM wheter (s)he's still active...
16:35 <+Lord-Simon> I'll say no to the no 2
16:35 < Lery> or not*
16:35 <+Lord-Simon> "as the new Project Supervisor"
16:35 < Kira0802> Nay to 2
16:36 < Kira0802> You leave it blank
16:36 < Kira0802> for the time being
16:36 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, hm, I don't really want people to just do 1 edit to keep their rights and then go awol for ayear again
16:36 < Lery> No, I disagree to 2 because we are mixing Project Supervisor with Wiki Supervisor there....
16:36 < cloudii> okay
16:36 < Misogi> May I propose something? (Will be long)
16:37 < cloudii> go ahead
16:37 < Vallor> DarkoNeko: +1
16:37 < Lery> Well, it'd be more polite from us to warn them first, no ?
16:37 < Misogi> First, rename Project Supervisors into Project Managers.
16:37 < Lery> Imagine we were to remove your Wiki rights because you were inactive for 370 days, you'd be pissed, no ?
16:37 < rock96> We can keep Supervisors busy before they go into the dark again, right? *grin*
16:37 <&DarkoNeko> Lery, I wouldn't notice, since I wasn't there :D
16:37 < Misogi> Anyone can become Manager.
16:37 < cloudii> Misogi +1
16:37 <&DarkoNeko> but from experience, yeah, a few ex wiki admin took it badly
16:37 < krytyk> lets listen to misogi now
16:38 < Kira0802> OK, fine with that
16:38 < krytyk> talking over one another is rude
16:38 <&DarkoNeko> even tho they were warned on their user talk page
16:38 < Vallor> Misogi: +1
16:38 < Lery> It costs us nothing to warn firstly I think
16:38 <&DarkoNeko> yes, a message on talk page
16:38 < Lery> @Misogi +1
16:38 <&DarkoNeko> ok, lemme add that on wiki
16:38 <+Lord-Simon> So, now we have "Project Admin" and "Project Managers" ?
16:39 < cloudii> So in this system: 1) Project Administrators are "Wiki supervisors" 2). Project Managers can be anymore (but preferably head translator)
16:39 <&DarkoNeko> Project Supervisors into Project Managers <- a short reason why ? do they have a particular physicial right currently ?
16:39 < Kira0802> I'm ok with that
16:39 < Misogi> For 1, Supervisors or above.
16:39 <+Lord-Simon> I'm confused by that too
16:39 < cloudii> Project Supervisors have no mod rights, but they have all rights with regards to translations
16:39 < cloudii> like "British English vs. American English"
16:39 < Lery> Well the term is currently misleading since Project Supervisors aren't official Wiki Supervisors
16:39 <+Lord-Simon> Because I see an admin responsible for the project
16:39 < Misogi> Well, it's to avoid confusions between Project and Wiki.
16:39 <&DarkoNeko> so, they're informal translation project leaders, in other words
16:39 < Kira0802> Let's replace project Admins by Wiki supervisor then
16:39 < cloudii> exactly, DarkoNeko
16:40 < Kira0802> no need to stay vague
16:40 <+Lord-Simon> Supervisors is the person who oversees if everything is ok, more or less
16:40 < cloudii> 1). Rename Project Admin to Wiki Supervisor
16:40 < Lery> @Kira0802 +1
16:40 <+Lord-Simon> and enters the scene when there are problems
16:40 < cloudii> 2). Rename Project Supervisor to Project Manager
16:40 < cloudii> Project manager can be anyone but does not have mod rights
16:40 <&DarkoNeko> Translation project leader sounds better to me
16:40 <&DarkoNeko> it's more self explanatory
16:40 <+Lord-Simon> ^
16:40 < cloudii> Project Leader?
16:40 < Misogi> Nah, I disagree.
16:40 <&DarkoNeko> project can be understood as the wiki as a whjole
16:40 < krytyk> Project bancho
16:41 < rock96> ...cult leader...
16:41 < Cthaeh> +1 project leader
16:41 <+Lord-Simon> nani ?
16:41 < hayashi> head translator
16:41 < krytyk> ^
16:41 < Lery> Leader sounds grandly to me...
16:41 < hayashi> would be simplier
16:41 < Kira0802> no
16:41 <+Lord-Simon> no
16:41 <&DarkoNeko> hmm
16:41 < Kira0802> head translator != project leader
16:41 <+Lord-Simon> hayashi, no
16:41 < cloudii> We have situations like Log Horizon
16:41 < Kira0802> see campione.
16:41 < cloudii> where the head translator isn't even on the wiki
16:41 <&DarkoNeko> head translator aslo has a feel of "above translators", but not related to a project in particular
16:41 < Misogi> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager" ; "Project Adminstrator -> Supervisor in charge"
16:42 <+Lord-Simon> Misogi +1
16:42 <&DarkoNeko> urg, my poor head XD
16:42 < cloudii> Misogi -1, I'm sorry xD
16:42 < Kira0802> Who's that "Supervisor in charge"?
16:42 < Kira0802> Wiki sup?
16:42 < hayashi> wiki supers
16:42 <+Lord-Simon> remove the " in charge"
16:42 < cloudii> Prefer Kira's, "Wiki Supervisor"
16:42 < Misogi> I don't like putting "wiki" on a project.
16:42 <&DarkoNeko> wiki supervisor doesn't sound local to a translation project at all
16:42 < Misogi> post*
16:42 < rock96> Maybe get rid of Project Administrators entirely? 'Cept for special cases like Haganai
16:42 < Kira0802> ...Supervisor then?
16:42 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, let's do the following
16:43 < Kira0802> Just remove the "wiki" part
16:43 < Misogi> Ok then. Supervisor is enough.
16:43 < Vallor> 'Supervisor' is good
16:43 < cloudii> Alright, now Misogi +1
16:43 < cloudii> <3
16:43 <+Lord-Simon> as of now, no project has any "Project Adminstrator", not "Project Supervisor"
16:43 < rock96> Haganai?
16:43 < Kira0802> every project has a project admin
16:43 <&DarkoNeko> so, to have the def right : "supervisors are ... ?"
16:43 <+Lord-Simon> Create a name
16:43 <+Lord-Simon> and give it a meaning
16:43 < Kira0802> when it's blank, it's Onizuka-GTO by default
16:43 < Kira0802> lol
16:44 < Vallor> Supervisors are supervisors.
16:44 < cloudii> Well, http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3194
16:44 < Misogi> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (anyone)" ; "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above"
16:44 < cloudii> To represent Oni's voice
16:44 < cloudii> and TLG who is not here
16:44 < cloudii> they once spoke about this topic
16:44 <+Lord-Simon> So...
16:44 <&DarkoNeko> supervisor imply it doesn't need to have much hand in the making, i like that
16:44 <+Lord-Simon> Vote for Misogi's option ?: "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (anyone)" ; "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above"
16:44 < cloudii> Yes
16:45 < krytyk> that should be okay.
16:45 < krytyk> yes
16:45 < Kira0802> Yea
16:45 < Lery> It's true that most project have an N/A as Project Admin / Supervisor currently...
16:45 < Vallor> Yeah
16:45 < Misogi> Yes (although I may not count)
16:45 < Lery> yes
16:45 < Cthaeh> yes, vote
16:45 <&DarkoNeko> i'd have preferred "translation project manager" for clarity, but I'll take that
16:45 < cloudii> Onizuka once voiced TLG's opinion that all the positions need to be filled
16:46 < cloudii> Okay, resolved?
16:46 < rock96> 'K, I think
16:46 < cloudii> Okay, so backtrack to the last point
16:46 <+Lord-Simon> no
16:46 < cloudii> Project Manager inactivity?
16:46 <&DarkoNeko> so
16:46 <&DarkoNeko> wait
16:46 <+Lord-Simon> ^
16:46 <&DarkoNeko> Project Manager, does he need to be one of rhe translators ?
16:46 < Kira0802> No,
16:46 < rock96> Not really?
16:46 <+Lord-Simon> no
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16:46 < Lery> No
16:46 < cloudii> usually, but doesn't have to be
16:46 <&DarkoNeko> that sounds a bit weird
16:46 < Misogi> No, but it'd be better.
16:46 < Kira0802> It's not.
16:47 < Misogi> It can be an editor.
16:47 < Kira0802> An editor can do the job.
16:47 < cloudii> should be the most invested individual in the project
16:47 < Misogi> Or someone else more experienced on BT.
16:47 < Lery> Well, Project Manager should be able to use the wiki correctly and to take decision when it's needed, that's it.
16:47 < Vallor> Why an editor wouldn't have th rights to be a project manager...?
16:47 <&DarkoNeko> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014#project_leading_and_supervisions <- is that formulation ok with everyone ?
16:47 < Vallor> the right*
16:47 < Misogi> He can.
16:47 < Vallor> That's what I'm saying
16:47 < Lery> except for the "fo" and the "z" :P
16:48 <&DarkoNeko> meh, correcting
16:48 <&DarkoNeko> "Project Supervisor -> Project Manager (usually one of the translators or editors)"
16:48 <&DarkoNeko> "Project Administrator -> Supervisor (wiki supervisor or above)"
16:48 < rock96> No, don;t
16:48 < krytyk> well as long as its the highest authority when it comes to shape of the project
16:48 < krytyk> it can be either tl or editor
16:48 < rock96> We're a lazy bunch, alright
16:48 <+Lord-Simon> @DarkoNeko, yes.
16:48 <&DarkoNeko> tio be hoenst, supervisors don't *want* to have to manage local projects
16:48 < Misogi> The Manager can also be an experienced member of BT, if the TL is inexperienced with BT.
16:48 <&DarkoNeko> we're just there to be consulted in case of questions or problems
16:48 < Lery> That's the point in having Project Manager ;)
16:48 < Misogi> (Which is what I do.)
16:49 <+Lord-Simon> ^^^
16:49 < Lery> Well, Misogi, you're a supervisor too.
16:49 < cloudii> Are we resolved here?
16:49 < Kira0802> is this matter settled?
16:49 < Misogi> Yes.
16:49 <+Lord-Simon> Darko ?
16:50 < Lery> Yes
16:50 <+Lord-Simon> DarkoNeko, you there. Are you alive ?
16:50  * DarkoNeko breathes
16:50 <&DarkoNeko> yes, yes I am
16:50 <+Lord-Simon> Ok
16:50 <+Lord-Simon> then to the next topic
16:50 <+Lord-Simon> or poin
16:50 <+Lord-Simon> t
16:51 < cloudii> We never voted on Project Manager inactivity
16:51 <&DarkoNeko> yes, that's the next point
16:51 < Lery> Didn't we ?
16:51 <&DarkoNeko> nope
16:51 <+Lord-Simon> So, as darko has written:
16:51 <+Lord-Simon> If a Project Supervisor/Manager appears to be inactive
16:51 <+Lord-Simon> A translator may put in a request with Adminsitration, to be instated as the new Project Supervisor
16:51 < rock96> let's just make it that if no one can reach the Manager then we start the clock?
16:52 <+Lord-Simon> Define the time span
16:52 < Misogi> 6 months here.
16:52 <&DarkoNeko> do wer define a minimu activity ? it feels better to be cvague here
16:52 < rock96> In this case 6 months, yeah
16:52 < Lery> Yeah, that's fine so. Let's say 3 months
16:52 <&DarkoNeko> you don't want to wait 3 months to do soemthing because that guy isn't here
16:52 < cloudii> Um, I favor no time span on this
16:52 < Kira0802> off topic guys, but my IP has been blocked
16:52 < Lery> An active project has to be responsive...
16:52 < cloudii> Say for example Hatamaou gets a no-name Project Manager
16:52 <&DarkoNeko> most translators/editors would be gone after such a time
16:52 <+Lord-Simon> I'd go with the suggestion that rock96 made
16:52 < cloudii> but they vanish after 2 weeks
16:52 < Lery> Again ? You spammer :P
16:52 < cloudii> what then?
16:52 <+Lord-Simon> "let's just make it that if no one can reach the Manager then we start the clock?"
16:52 < Misogi> Hmm... perhaps we should describe the situation.
16:53 < cloudii> We never described the protocol for becoming Project Manager
16:53 < hayashi> managers should be reachable
16:53 < Kira0802> I'll go with 6 months
16:53 < hayashi> at least in a week
16:53 < Misogi> For inactive projects, no problems (it's usually above 6 months).
16:53 < hayashi> no one's going to wait 6 months
16:53 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, typically it's the translation project creator
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16:53 < Misogi> For active projects, it can be less. 3 months.
16:53 < cloudii> �
16:53 < cloudii> exactly
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16:53 < cloudii> but that's why they tend to vanish
16:53 <&DarkoNeko> hm
16:53 < Kira0802> well
16:53 < cloudii> I think the Project Manager should be reachable within one week
16:54 < Vallor> if the project manager has disappeared since 6 months, any translator/editor of the project can become the new manager, with the consent of the supervisor
16:54 < cloudii> that's a very reasonable expectation
16:54 < rock96> Nah, for extrememly active projects we need to greatly reduce the time span...
16:54 <+Lord-Simon> Let's go with a week after the Manages is not reachable.
16:54 <&DarkoNeko> a fixed duration feels wrong here. We could add that if the project manager isn't available, anyone that is should be free to do his role in the interim
16:54 < Kira0802> a week for removal?
16:54 <+Lord-Simon> Week is a good time span. In general.
16:54 < Vallor> That was my point
16:54 < cloudii> Place the power in Administration for mo�aking case-by-case decisions
16:54 < Kira0802> hell, if I'M off to china for 3 months, what happens?
16:54 < cloudii> don't specify a week
16:54 < Cthaeh> opposed to week
16:54 <+Lord-Simon> A week for action
16:54 <&DarkoNeko> and only have a proper, official replacement after the duration of your choice (a month ? 3 months ?)
16:54 <&DarkoNeko> Kira0802, if you warned first it's different
16:54 < Lery> Let's say that two week of non declared hiatus is too much
16:54 <+Lord-Simon> After that, the supervisor has to take a look
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16:55 < Kira0802> I'll go with 10 days
16:55 < Lery> If you go to china for 3 months, if you're polite, you would warn first :P
16:55 < Misogi> We'll add that to the admin contact page.
16:55 <+Lord-Simon> ^^taht
16:55 < Misogi> I'll go with one month.
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16:55 <+Lord-Simon> Well, Misogi..
16:56 < Misogi> At least, in case of unexpected absences.
16:56 <+Lord-Simon> If I understand correctly
16:56 <&DarkoNeko> hmm, no matter the choice of duration, i propose to add "a project manager may designate someone as interim if he knows he'll be unavailble for a while"
16:56 <+Lord-Simon> it's all about the Translators and the Adminst
16:56 <+Lord-Simon> *managers
16:56 < Lery> As long as we distinguish the non-announced hiatus from the announced ones...
16:56 <+Lord-Simon> Ok, the situation:
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> There is a TL that is translating a novel
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> He requests an action or coordination from the manager
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> The manager does not respond
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 1
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> day
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 2 days
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> 3 days
16:57 <+Lord-Simon> and it goes on.
16:57 < Misogi> Ah, that ?
16:58 <+Lord-Simon> What is the limit, where you patience runs out.
16:58 < Misogi> Well, if it's the delay of contact, then 1-2 weeks will be good.
16:58 < cloudii> I'm in favor of 2 weeks
16:58 < Kira0802> 10 days
16:58 < cloudii> of unexcused absense
16:58 < hayashi> 1 week
16:58 < cloudii> "undeclared absense"
16:58 <&DarkoNeko> I propose to vote on one thing we probably all gagree with first
16:58 <&DarkoNeko> "If a project manager knows they'll be away for a while, they should designate a subtitute to take all decisions in their absence"
16:59 < cloudii> Sure
16:59 < hayashi> that I can agree with
16:59 <+Lord-Simon> yes
16:59 < rock96> no prob
16:59 <&DarkoNeko> one advance of saying that upfront is that everything else will necessary only apply to unannounced absences
16:59 < Vallor> of course
16:59 <&DarkoNeko> advantage*
16:59 < Lery> alright
16:59  * DarkoNeko add "the following only apply for unannounced absences"
17:00 < Misogi> Let's resume it.
17:00 <&DarkoNeko> ok
17:00 < hayashi> 1 week
17:00 < cloudii> Let's do nominations then votes?
17:00 <+Lord-Simon> ^
17:00 < Lery> Let's do it two weeks then.
17:00 < cloudii> kira nominated 10 days
17:00 < cloudii> any other nominations?
17:00  * DarkoNeko groans
17:01 < cloudii> 1). 1 week 2). 2 weeks 3). 10 days
17:01 < cloudii> vote
17:01 <&DarkoNeko> I don't like having precise times for that
17:01 < Lery> Anyway, after one week of waiting, I guess anybody would already have contacted the Supervisor...
17:01 <&DarkoNeko> it's... too bureaucratic
17:01 < cloudii> Are they contacting the supervisor to ask if they can fill the position?
17:01 < Lery> Let's say : as soon as it reaches an Admin's ear and that it has been more than 10 days, then...
17:01 <&DarkoNeko> "if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion]/[do the thing]" ?
17:02 <+Lord-Simon> My suggestion is: 1) 1 week missing and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. 2) 2 weeks of non-activity or response, the place will be changed with another person
17:02 <+Lord-Simon> ^^
17:02 <&DarkoNeko> hmm
17:02 <&DarkoNeko> so, after the first week, you designate a de facto substitute
17:02 <&DarkoNeko> and after [x] weeks, that person becomes the official project manager
17:02 <+Lord-Simon> Like that. To have at least a person who can do that
17:02 < Lery> Hell, that's a detail, don't we have tons of other matters to discuss ???
17:02 <+Lord-Simon> or answers in time
17:02 < cloudii> imo… that feels even more bureaucratic…. but whatever
17:03 <&DarkoNeko> well, that imply that proijects have more than one person XD
17:03 < Lery> That's fine so
17:03 < Lery> Let's go with it
17:03 < Misogi> Just tell that it's a case-by-case request.
17:03 < Lery> Vote
17:03 <&DarkoNeko> with it, which one lol
17:03 < Kira0802> let's leave it tp "1 week to 2 weeks"?
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17:03 < Kira0802> leave it to*
17:03 <&DarkoNeko> "after a while" ?
17:03 < Kira0802> we can redefine that
17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "1) 1 week missing and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. 2) 2 weeks of non-activity or response, the place will be changed with another person"
17:03 <&DarkoNeko> hmm
17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "so, after the first week, you designate a de facto substitute"
17:03 <+Lord-Simon> "and after [x] weeks, that person becomes the official project manager"
17:04 < Kira0802> I can agree with that
17:04 < cloudii> 1 week missing de facto, 1 month official
17:04 <+Lord-Simon> also
17:04 <+Lord-Simon> " 17:02:05 Lord-Simon"
17:04 <+Lord-Simon> fauck
17:04 <+Lord-Simon> "  "if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion]/[do the thing]" ?"
17:04 < cloudii> Actually, I favor Simon's more xD
17:04 < Kira0802> consult others first, then do it
17:05 < Kira0802> if there's disagreement, go to supervisor
17:05 < cloudii> if a request to the project manager goes unanswered within a few days, then [contact the supervisor for opinion] and ask to become the de-facto project manager?
17:05 < cloudii> That's what it translates to for me
17:05 <&DarkoNeko> uh, let's do a mix, then
17:05 <&DarkoNeko> "1) if a project manager is missing (minimum a week, and decision to take) and the project staff complains, reconsider the management and talk to them. A subtitute manager is designated amongst the active member of the translation project"
17:05 <&DarkoNeko> "2) after [2 ?] weeks of non-activity or response, the subtitute officially become the new manager"
17:06 <&DarkoNeko> and ther are decisions to take*
17:06 <+Lord-Simon> VOTE
17:06 < Kira0802> Yea
17:06 <+Lord-Simon> yes
17:06 < Cthaeh> opposed
17:06 < cloudii> For point 2, can we specify duration?
17:06 < rock96> Just add case by case, and I'm fine with this.
17:06 < cloudii> I strongly just favor a case-by-case basis approach
17:06 <&DarkoNeko> rock96, anything we decide here isn't a rock hard rule, tho, we need flexibility
17:07 < Kira0802> ehe
17:07 < Lery> yeah
17:07 <&DarkoNeko> Cthaeh, why ?
17:07 < rock96> Which is why I propose this~
17:07 < Cthaeh> The danger I'm seeing here is that the translator forgets to say s/he will be gone for x-weeks, an editor (or translator with vastly different opinions) comes by and wants to make large changes, and then those large changes are made and the translator comes back after x weeks and is annoyed that something they considered important was completely changed
17:07 < Kira0802> rock 96, rock hard hehe
17:07 < Cthaeh> One example might be something like past/present tense
17:07 <&DarkoNeko> ..hmmm
17:07 < cloudii> I agree with Cthaeh
17:07 < Misogi> Same here.
17:07 < cloudii> which is why a case-by-case approach is much more flexible
17:07 < rock96> I wanna change the name *slams head into the wall*
17:07 < krytyk> so the editors who consult changes with translator exist?
17:07 < krytyk> i though thats just a myth
17:07 <&DarkoNeko> rhoo
17:07 < krytyk> thought*
17:08  * DarkoNeko pat pats krytyk 
17:08 < Lery> @Cthaeh Special cases like BegginerXP and so one should always be treated as special anyway...
17:08 < cloudii> leaves it up to Administration to decide whether the replacement should occur
17:08 < Misogi> It exists.
17:08 < cloudii> It's a valid concern
17:08 <+Lord-Simon> My thought here was as a Manager and not a TL being a manager. Just the position of a Mangaer
17:08 < Kira0802> OK, so consultation first?
17:08 <&DarkoNeko> well, that's another case, then : "if the project manager has signifiant opposition with the other members of their project, what happens" ?
17:08 < cloudii> The Project Manager has the right to define all translation details for the project
17:08 <+Lord-Simon> That's a a given
17:08 < krytyk> manager being the authority on the project shape
17:09 < krytyk> stylistic wise
17:09 < cloudii> I would personally like to pile all of these issues onto the Supervisor to resolve XD
17:09 < cloudii> and handle it on a case-by-case basis
17:09 < Kira0802> fine
17:09 < krytyk> theres hardly anything else there, right
17:09 < cloudii> Supervisor can seek consultation from other supervisors
17:09 <+Lord-Simon> agree
17:09  * DarkoNeko groans at the potential issues
17:09 < cloudii> The caveat here is that Supervisors need to be named for all projects
17:10 < cloudii> *must
17:10 < cloudii> can no longer leave them blank
17:10 <+Lord-Simon> to the "and handle it on a case-by-case basis" and "Supervisor can seek consultation from other supervisors"
17:10 < cloudii> the supervisor doesn't have to be invested in the project. They're available for conflict resolution
17:10 <&DarkoNeko> all blanks are de facto affected to any and all supervisors
17:10 < krytyk> EVIL PLAN 1: name darko supervisor for all projects
17:10 <&DarkoNeko> i hate you
17:10 < krytyk> EVIL PLAN 1.1: Laugh
17:10 < Kira0802> if a project manager can't be trusted, s/he can't be a manager
17:11 < rock96> The outcome of EVIL PLAN: ban from wiki.
17:11 <&DarkoNeko> ok, let's add that, then
17:11 < cloudii> There are situations when we just have to be like nanodesuyo. If the manager is unsatisfactory (or generates a lot of resistence), the supervisor needs to stand up and say, sorry, but you can't be manager.
17:11 <&DarkoNeko> "the subtitute must be a trusted person from the project"
17:11 <&DarkoNeko> or something like that ?
17:11 <&DarkoNeko> as in, they chosoe it amongst themselves
17:11 < cloudii> Just let the supervisor decide......
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17:12 < krytyk> The substitute must be a person already involved in project, and a reliable authority concerning it.
17:12 <&DarkoNeko> and the supervisor only nod, or refuse if there's a blablant problem
17:12 < Misogi> "In cases of inactivity or management problems, a supervisor can be asked to name another Project Manager"
17:12 <&DarkoNeko> the supervisor doesn't know each and every problem on the project
17:12 < Cthaeh> agree that supervisor should consult someone who is/has been active on the project in the case that a project manager change request is made
17:12 < krytyk> o/ kuro-chan
17:12 < cloudii> Misogi +1
17:12 <&DarkoNeko> we're outsider, if there's an annoying person we'll probably don't know until it's too late
17:12 < Vallor> Misogi: +1
17:12 < cloudii> the supervisor should consult with the entire project team though
17:12 < Lery> Let's say : the subsitute should be DarkoNeko, who will decide after studying the case who could take the lead if the real Manager were to really go MIA
17:12 < Misogi> Of course.
17:12 < Kira0802> Misogi: +1
17:12 < cloudii> but we can expect the supervisor to give an unbiased opinion
17:12 < Cthaeh> cloud put it better
17:13 <&DarkoNeko> ...tho, in my opinion, the manager should be someone people of his project trusts
17:13 <&DarkoNeko> you can't do a collaborative project with people you hate, it just doesn't work
17:13 < Kira0802> yeah, he can be sacked, i'm ok with that
17:13 <+Lord-Simon> ^
17:13 < cloudii> personal conflicts are included with "management problems"
17:13 < Misogi> "In cases of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to statute on that case"
17:14 < Vallor> cloudii:  +1
17:14 < hayashi> cool
17:14 <&DarkoNeko> Misogi, that's kind of a given already
17:14 < cloudii> I personally like how misogi worded the last one better xD
17:14 < cloudii> it's clearer
17:14 < Misogi> I tried to reformulate the rule.
17:14 < Kira0802> Someone make a statement?
17:15 -!- rock96 is now known as Lock
17:15 < Vallor> I agree with the misogi's last rule
17:15 < cloudii> No, I'd like the supervisor to have the power to legitimately select the Project Manager, after conslutation with the entire project team
17:15 < krytyk> "In cases of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask Supervisor to appoitn a new manager from among the current project staff."
17:15 < krytyk> appoint*
17:15 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, that's basically the equivalent of the team choosing themselves
17:15 < cloudii> I just think it's a power of the supervisor that should be clarified
17:15 < Misogi> "to statute on the Project Manager's nomination" ?
17:16 <&DarkoNeko> and the supervisor just saying "sure, why the hell not"
17:16 < cloudii> that's find too
17:16 -!- joay_b [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:16 < cloudii> but I think it's a necessary moderating power
17:16 < krytyk> I believe supervisors know more or less background on projects
17:16 < krytyk> or can ask around on irc for example
17:16 < Misogi> "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to statute on the Project Manager's nomination."
17:16 < cloudii> krytyk +1
17:16 < Kira0802> Supervisor=Absolute unbiased authorioty under the great admins
17:16 < Kira0802> authority*
17:16 < cloudii> or misogi +1
17:16 < krytyk> so its not like they are completely clueless
17:16 < cloudii> XD
17:16 <&DarkoNeko> Kira0802, uniformed decisions can be misguided, and that's one supervisor saying :)
17:17 < krytyk> well, democracy sucks
17:17 < krytyk> thats why
17:17 < cloudii> You just have to be responsible and talk to the project team
17:17 <&DarkoNeko> dictature is fun as long as it's me
17:17 < cloudii> and try and make a decision based on past contributions
17:17 < cloudii> you can see the contributions log
17:17 < krytyk> 0,
17:17 < Misogi> Well then, may we decide what we'll vote?
17:17 < Kira0802> ^
17:17 < cloudii> Misogi: "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to statute on the Project Manager's nomination."
17:18 < Lery> Vote
17:18 < Lery> Yes
17:18 < cloudii> yes
17:18 < Kira0802> Yea
17:18 < Lock> yup
17:18 < Misogi> Yes, I guess.
17:18 < krytyk> ...make it more clear. No for the time being.
17:18 <&DarkoNeko> "A subtitute manager may be chosen by the remaining active member and approved by the supervisor" ?
17:18 < krytyk> "statute for nomination" is unclear.
17:18 < krytyk> that part.
17:18 < Misogi> I'll correct that.
17:18 -!- Jerl [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
17:18 -!- mode/#baka-tsuki [+ao Jerl Jerl] by [^_^]
17:18 < Gero-chan> Get out, p-pervert.
17:19 < cloudii> Disagree with DarkoNeko's
17:19 <&DarkoNeko> eeh
17:19 < cloudii> I still think supervisor should have total selection power
17:19 < Lery> Let's say that Darkoneko has to find a nice sentence to give the appropriate idea in the minutes...
17:19 < Misogi> "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to statute on a temporary or permanent Project Manager nomination."
17:20 < hayashi> sounds fair
17:20 < hayashi> but you'll need active supers
17:20 < cloudii> "In the case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff can ask the Supervisor to nominate the Project Manager"
17:20 < Lery> Yeah, that's vague but vague is fine
17:20 <&DarkoNeko>  "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or choose a new Project Manager amongst the active project members" ?
17:20 < krytyk> yay, cloudi made it clear.
17:20 < krytyk> something liek that darko
17:20 < Lery> "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or choose a new Project Manager amongst the active project members, but a cat is fine, too" ?
17:20 < krytyk> can someone make it longer?!
17:20 < Lock> Yes!
17:21 -!- nanodesuyo [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:21 <&DarkoNeko> I can ALWAYS make it longer
17:21 < krytyk> thats bragging
17:21  * Lord-Simon blushes
17:21 < Lery> He's French ;)
17:21 < Kira0802> Ehehe
17:21  * Lock groans
17:21 <+Lord-Simon> So
17:21 < Misogi> "In case of inactivity or management issues, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to statute on a transitory or permanent Project Manager nomination."
17:21 <+Lord-Simon> Vote for: "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or choose a new Project Manager amongst the active project members"
17:21 < cloudii> Yes
17:21 <&DarkoNeko> Misogi, I don't really understand "nomination"
17:21 < krytyk> change to appoint
17:21 <&DarkoNeko> yes
17:21 < krytyk> simple
17:21 < krytyk> done
17:21 < Lock> yeah
17:21 < Kira0802> final form?
17:21 < Cthaeh> yes
17:21 < krytyk> saishu keitai
17:21 < Lery> @DarkoNeko : the same as in FR
17:22 < Kira0802> Yea
17:22 < Lery> yes
17:22 < cloudii> Can we restate the final form?
17:22 <&DarkoNeko> "In case of inactivity or management problems, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or appoint a new Project Manager amongst the active project members"
17:22 < Lery> it's just lacking a genitive
17:22 < cloudii> Vote just to clarify
17:22 < cloudii> yes
17:22 < Kira0802> Yea
17:22 < krytyk> yes
17:22 <+Lord-Simon> yes
17:22 < Lery> y
17:22 < Lock> yes...
17:22 < Cthaeh> y
17:22 < Misogi> Yes (you can replace problems with issues)
17:23 < cloudii> resolved?
17:23 <&DarkoNeko> looks like it
17:23 < Kira0802> Next! :D
17:23 < cloudii> I have one for thing
17:23 < cloudii> appointment of project managers
17:23 < cloudii> self nominations or contact supervisor?
17:23 < Lery> sudo apt-get install next_topic
17:23 < cloudii> (assuming position is blank)
17:23 < hayashi> contact
17:23 < Lock> staff appoints the manager.
17:23 <&DarkoNeko> I'm all for having it stay the project creator by defaulty
17:24 < Misogi> Just tell it on the administration contact page.
17:24 < cloudii> Misogi +1
17:24 < hayashi> at least courtesy informing
17:24 < krytyk> project creator is often the person who made the teaser and left it as is
17:24 < krytyk> thus no.
17:24 < KuroiHikari|m> Head TL or someone the head TL agrees with
17:24 < Kira0802> Staff appoints, Supervisor agrees
17:24 < cloudii> agree with krytyk
17:24 <&DarkoNeko> then a new person appoint self, as on the thing we just voted on
17:25 < Lery> @Misogi : actually "problem management" is the real thing :P
17:25 < cloudii> Yes, all notifications about new project managers should be made on the Administration Contact Page
17:25 < krytyk> problems will define themselves
17:25 <&DarkoNeko> along with a notice on the translation project's talk page
17:25 < krytyk> when they come to supervisor to discuss them
17:25 < krytyk> dont overcomplicate
17:25 < krytyk> over trivialities
17:25 < Misogi> Lery: Ah, nevermind my comment then.
17:26 < Lery> Well, it's a well used word in IT support and so on. It's part of the ITIL stuff and all.
17:26 < cloudii> okay, anyways, staff should at least make contact
17:26 < cloudii> can we agree with that
17:26 < cloudii> and be vague about the form of contact?
17:26 < Lery> @cloudii : yeah
17:26 < Misogi> Yeah.
17:26 < cloudii> vote
17:26 <&DarkoNeko> agreed, the less bureaucracy the better
17:26 < Kira0802> Yea
17:26 < Lery> Please rephrase it for vote
17:27 < Misogi> "Any nomination of a Project Manager must be brought to the supervisors."
17:27 < Misogi> The "brought" can be improved.
17:27 < Lery> "by any means necessary" ? ><
17:27 <&DarkoNeko> lol
17:27 < cloudii> unnecessary lery........
17:27 < Misogi> "Any" means that.
17:27  * Lock giggles
17:28 < Kira0802> teehee
17:28 < Lery> Sartre FTW
17:28 <&DarkoNeko> I think "In case of unannounced inactivity or management issues, the project staff may ask the Supervisor to mediate and/or appoint a new Project Manager amongst the active project members"  already says that
17:28 <&DarkoNeko> they have to contact the supervisor in all cases
17:28 < Misogi> It's one case.
17:28 <&DarkoNeko> we could have a page logging all translation rpoject managemenet change, as an aside
17:28 < Misogi> There's also the first one, which is different.
17:28 < Misogi> first nomination*
17:29 <&DarkoNeko> that's always the project or teaser creator
17:29 < Lery> @Misogi : okay, never mind, I thougt we talked about "problem management" but here, you're meaning "problem with the management", right ?
17:29 < cloudii> …what exactly are we talking about right now?
17:30 < Kira0802> Dunno
17:30 < Misogi> I'm a bit lost.
17:30 < Kira0802> I have no idea
17:30 < Kira0802> OK
17:30 <&DarkoNeko> coffee, brb
17:30 < Misogi> Let's go back to the topic.
17:30 < Kira0802> let's just retrace how it goes
17:30 -!- Slayze [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
17:30 < Kira0802> 1. Supervisor away
17:30 < Kira0802> 2. Project nominates a new guy
17:31 < Kira0802> 3. New guy approved by the supervisor
17:31 < cloudii> *Manager you mean
17:31 < cloudii> *Manager away
17:31 < Kira0802> Manager away, OK
17:31 < Kira0802> my bad
17:31 < Misogi> "Supervisors must be informed of any Project Manager appointment."
17:31 < Kira0802> well yeah
17:31 < Kira0802> 3 covers that
17:32 < Kira0802> ...
17:32 < Misogi> Anything else to do?
17:32 < krytyk> makes sense, and first project manager is appointed by supervisor during ATP procedure.
17:32 < Kira0802> Nothing much left
17:33 < cloudii> krytyk +1
17:33 <+Lord-Simon> Well
17:33 <+Lord-Simon> there are the user groups
17:33 <+Lord-Simon> and the removal of people
17:33 < Misogi> Sure.
17:33 <+Lord-Simon> an the creation of new groups
17:33 < krytyk> you mean forums.
17:33 <+Lord-Simon> but for that wee need TLG
17:34 <+Lord-Simon> and he isn't here.
17:34 < Misogi> Let's speak of the Wiki.
17:34 < cloudii> Can we resolve this one point first?
17:34 < cloudii> about the first project manageR?
17:34 < Misogi> ?
17:34 < Kira0802> ?
17:34 < cloudii> how does the first project manager come into being?
17:34 <+Lord-Simon> ?
17:34 < Misogi> Approved along with the ATP.
17:34 < cloudii> do we agree?
17:34 <&DarkoNeko> I say it's the creator
17:34 < cloudii> I disagree with DarkoNeko from practical experience
17:35 <&DarkoNeko> give more details ?
17:35 < Misogi> Well, I do nominate myself as Supervisor and Manager, if the TL is inexperienced.
17:35 < Kira0802> The one who starts
17:35 < krytyk> creator can be the person who made teaser, and only teaser
17:35 < cloudii> ^^
17:35 < Kira0802> Unless he wishes to give it to someone
17:35 < Misogi> Then, I give the Manager post once enough experience is acquired.
17:35 < Misogi> (I can't manage more than 20 projects at once.)
17:36 < krytyk> manager is the person who takes upon himself to continue project, and by putting ATP tag dedicates himself to continue it as a full project
17:36 <+Lord-Simon> ^sounds good
17:36 <+Lord-Simon> actually
17:36 < cloudii> krytyk +1
17:36 < cloudii> krytyk: "first project manager is appointed by supervisor during ATP procedure."
17:36 < hayashi> fair enough
17:37 < Kira0802> i agree
17:37 < cloudii> I vote yes
17:37 < Kira0802> Yea
17:37 < Misogi> I'm on it.
17:37 <+Lord-Simon> Ok
17:37 <+Lord-Simon> then
17:37 <+Lord-Simon> VOTE for: "first project manager is appointed by supervisor during ATP procedure."
17:37 < hayashi> yes
17:37 < cloudii> yes
17:37 < Misogi> Yes.
17:38 < Lock> yes
17:38 <+Lord-Simon> yes
17:38 -!- Xahn [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
17:38 <&DarkoNeko> uuh
17:38 < Kira0802> sup xahn
17:38 < Kira0802> yes
17:38 < Kira0802> what?
17:38 <&DarkoNeko> in all pratically, it's whoever want to continue, the supervisor just nod vaguely. you don't mention the choice comes from the person to begin with ,that may turn off peopel
17:38 < Xahn> yo Kira0802 
17:39 < cloudii> "first project manager is approved by the supervisor during ATP procedure."
17:40 < Misogi> It's closer to reality.
17:40 < hayashi> tbh
17:40 < krytyk> usually its only one person at that point
17:40 < cloudii> meh, I'm personally fine with Simon's statement
17:40 < krytyk> since the project has hardly any content.
17:40 < hayashi> this is one area where being grey is fine
17:40 < Kira0802> anyone wants to modify its vote because of the change?
17:40 < hayashi> because managers come and go too fast
17:40 < cloudii> no not really xD I like Simon's better
17:41 < hayashi> if we're too bureaucratic over this issue
17:41 < Kira0802> so...next?
17:41 < cloudii> Can we move to forums?
17:41 < hayashi> it will be counter intinuitive 
17:41 < hayashi> yes
17:41 < hayashi> forums
17:41 < cloudii> Okay
17:41 < cloudii> I have one thing
17:41 < Misogi> We can't do much, though.
17:41 < cloudii> for discussion
17:41 <&DarkoNeko> I agree with hayashi  there, it's kind of trying to put everything written and... fixating it too much
17:41 < cloudii> Can we discuss which usergroup can have ban/unban privileges?
17:41 < hayashi> SB
17:42 < Kira0802> We can discuss that
17:42 < Misogi> GMs.
17:42 < Kira0802> err
17:42 <+Lord-Simon> Doesn'Twork
17:42 <+Lord-Simon> need TLG
17:42 < Misogi> Of course.
17:42 <&DarkoNeko> for starter, what groups have that currently ?
17:42 < cloudii> we don't need to get it done, but we can give him our opinion and recommendation
17:42 < Misogi> ^
17:42 < Kira0802> It's not like we're modifying it asap, we can just discuss
17:42 < cloudii> no usergroup has ban/unban except Admins
17:42 < Lery> Well Oni should be able to do it too
17:43 < cloudii> and specific named individuals apaprently....
17:43 < krytyk> for forums you mean
17:43 < cloudii> for forums yes
17:43 < Lock> Head translators maybe?
17:43 < hayashi> no
17:43 < Kira0802> let's clarify 1st
17:43 < hayashi> we don't need that power tbh
17:43 < krytyk> please make sure to state clearly whether you mean forums or wiki whenever mentinoning usergroups and rights, thanks.
17:43 < Kira0802> forums/wiki?
17:43 < cloudii> Forums.
17:43 < hayashi> I'm assuming forums
17:43 <&DarkoNeko> maybe we need a patrol group for countering vandalism
17:43 < Kira0802> ok, forums.
17:43 < hayashi> head tls mod threads and stuff
17:43 < cloudii> We do have a patrol group for vandalism
17:43 < hayashi> ban/unban should be with admin level mods
17:44 < hayashi> the SB
17:44 < Kira0802> Give ban rights to FSB
17:44 < Misogi> Global Moderators, Admins and some nominated people got the ban powers.
17:44 < cloudii> @Misogi, that's the current state?
17:44 < Misogi> The FSB used to have them, but it was removed.
17:44 < Misogi> It seems so. But it's unclear.
17:44 <&DarkoNeko> there's no "global mod"... you're talking about the forums ?
17:44  * DarkoNeko is out
17:44 < Kira0802> yes
17:44 <&DarkoNeko> I'll go bike outside or something
17:45 < Kira0802> no
17:45 < Kira0802> u stay here
17:45 < Kira0802> ;_;
17:45 <&DarkoNeko> but it's warm outside ;è;
17:45 <&DarkoNeko> you just have to add the votes on http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Talk:Meeting:March302014
17:45 < Kira0802> it's snowing here
17:45 <+Lord-Simon> it should be almost 9 am where TLG is
17:45 < hayashi> maybe he forgot
17:45 <&DarkoNeko> it's sunday, i woke up like at midday
17:45 <+Lord-Simon> I've written a mail
17:45 < Kira0802> prob overslept
17:46 < cloudii> Probably sleeping in....
17:46 <+Lord-Simon> to him
17:46 < cloudii> are we continuing with the ban/unban issue?
17:46 < Kira0802> maybe wrong server lol
17:46 -!- wet [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:46 <+Lord-Simon> nah
17:46 < cloudii> cool
17:47 < cloudii> I'm going to get going, unless DarkoNeko wants to talk about sidebar
17:47 < cloudii> and main page
17:47 -!- wet [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
17:47 < Misogi> I'll add the ATP and 1st Manager thing.
17:47 < Kira0802> i'm out fow awhile
17:47 < Kira0802> bbl
17:47 <+Lord-Simon> so, this is it. For now
17:47 < cloudii> DarkoNeko: You might be interested in this main page proposal
17:47 < cloudii> http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=User:Pumkingboyz/Sandbox:Main_page_proposal
17:47 < Misogi> In "Project leading and supervision"
17:47 <&DarkoNeko> cloudii, the only point of choice is wether to use the old method or your discovery, a'd be for the later
17:48 < cloudii> I don't really care xD
17:48 -!- AthenaSoCute [[email protected]] has joined #Baka-Tsuki
17:48 < krytyk> what
17:48 < krytyk> whos that
17:48 < AthenaSoCute> kira
17:48 < hayashi> botanophile 2
17:49 < cloudii> but, I'm kind of tired of deliberations at this point…. was running interviews for 5 hours yesterday so…. cloud is wiped out xD
17:49 < cloudii> had to pick an E-board for next year at school
17:49 < cloudii> but anyways, cloud is off. see y'all
17:49 < AthenaSoCute> ...
17:49 < AthenaSoCute> if cloud is off
17:49 < AthenaSoCute> should we ebd this for now?
17:49 < AthenaSoCute> rnd*
17:50 <&DarkoNeko> alright, so we're calling the meeting off ?
17:50 < Lery> See you Cloudii, may you have a sunny day ;)
17:50 < AthenaSoCute> end*
17:50 <&DarkoNeko> I'm out biking \o/
17:50 < AthenaSoCute> we can meet next week or something
17:50 < Lery> yeah I'm tired of this too
17:50 < Lery> Sure
17:50 <&DarkoNeko> thanks, everyone
17:50 < cloudii> thanks 'errybody
17:50 <+Lord-Simon> So, looks like the meeting is off for today

Difference between revisions of "Talk:Meeting:March302014"

Revision as of 18:53, 30 March 2014

Contents

Clarify Ambiguous (outdated) Baka-Tsuki guidelines.

teaser status / ATP

mailing supervisors

Creating a wiki page for requests

remove Wiki rules on forums

Create comprehensive Help Pages to improve the experience of brand-new members.

inactivity

project leading and supervisions

Project Manager

x

x

x

x

x

x

Complete Log of the Meeting

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