Talk:Ore no Imōto ga Konna ni Kawaii Wake ga Nai:Volume 11 Chapter 4

Editing Questions

Starting on Ch. 04 now. Several questions, though:

(1) Any idea what the "commas (、)" next to some lines where furigana would normally be are? Is it for emphasis? Should it be included somehow into the TL?

(2) Was the JP text or the CN text used for c04/v11 in general? Some lines seem to be "close", but somehow don't feel quite right in the TL'd EN. I'm trying to preserve the meaning during editing, but it can be confusing sometimes when the original and the TL don't quite seem to gel. Mind, I'm not a native JP speaker, and my JP is limited, so that could just be me more often than not.

(3) I haven't really been paying attention to comparisons between the JP and EN until now, but is the choice of "um" for 「うん」 rather than "yes"/"yeah"/etc. in some locations based on the assumption that the reader will recognize it as a JP expression of affirmation, or something else? Eg., v11c04 lines 7-8:「おいおいマジか？」/「うん」. And again on p259 of the JP LN where Kirino asks Manami if Manami is making fun of her/treating her like an idiot. There are probably more—I was just flipping through trying to delineate the JP/TL correspondence for personal reference.

Aside: I'll probably have a bit of a rough start with the edits. I am especially wary of making edits prematurely, or accidentally and substantially changing the meaning of the TL from the original, or otherwise changing the characters' established tones/mannerisms. If I go too far or mess something up feel free to let me know (obviously).

-shift (talk) 13:17, 6 June 2013 (CDT)

From my (admittedly minimal) knowledge, the "commas" (though I feel it's more accurate to call them diacritics) are meant for emphasis in a similar manner to italics/bolding. They should be workable into the text on a per-case basis; they don't seem the kind that's significant enough to be included in a TL note (usually).

(2) and (3) only Chaos can definitively answer, but if no one minds a sporadic contributor's opinion, うん really should be translated to some form of affirmative "Yes", "Yeah", or whatnot - they're not SFX, and it has a readily available English translation, which to me seems to be the only reasons one should keep the Japanese pronunciation. Again though, this is probably up to the main translator's discretion.

Chaos (talk) Sorry since I didn't clarify myself. Getting the Japanese version is taken too long, so I had stick with Chinese version since Volume 10. If both of you have any question, feel free to leave a message here or email me directly.

Anyway, if you spot discrepancies, don't be afraid of at the very least pointing each of them out in the talk page, or correcting them w/ justification in the summary box if you're sure you're right. Wikipedia even has a guideline on "Be Bold"; Baka-Tsuki is admittedly a different community with a different aim, but no point not using the advantages MediaWiki has to offer, in my opinion. -Akira (talk) 15:58, 6 June 2013 (CDT)

Heh, I don't mean to imply I'm particularly knowledgeable. Generally I qualify all of my statements in some way or other, but doing so makes my speech far more verbose than it already is. With regard to "comma" vs. "diacritic", that makes sense. I was using "comma" simply because that's what they looked like to me from a typographic(?al) perspective. When it comes to JP and diacritics I really only think of the dakuten and handakuten.

With regard to うん, that's what I would have assumed, but I haven't come across enough written JP to feel confident making an assertion that a more Western "mm..." or "uh..." for reflection or hesitation wouldn't also have a similar or identical representation in Japanese. Hundreds and hundreds of hours I've spent passively/semi-passively listening to the stuff, but hardly any time have I spent reading it. Even then, that's nothing compared to being immersed in the language or otherwise actively engaging with it.

As for WP's "Be bold", my more cautious side is more inclined to consider the policy as being at odds with BT's format guideline for editors. But, since Chaos is the listed supervisor for OreImo, I figured I'd get their input as to how ironclad those rules are for this particular project.

That said, thanks for your input! At the very least I can incorporate some of it into my personal "working copy", such as it is.

-shift (talk) 16:33, 6 June 2013 (CDT)

JP vs CN editions, several terms, "honorific" speech

In at least one place the term "aniki" is used in place of "onii-chan" where the JP text uses 『お兄ちゃん』 (ex., pp259-260, which I think is roughly line #81 on the wiki). Should I go ahead and replace such occurrences, or is "aniki" used/preferred for consistency during their "discussion"? I will assume the consensus to remain valid if I encounter any similar occurrences unless otherwise noted.

Also, a few lines before that, when Kyousuke-shi is addressing Tamura, he stutters on "Manami", with no mention of "Tamura", and uses the "san" honorific rather than "sama". However, he does appear to be using humble speech to address her. Not sure what to do about that. The existing "sama" seems like a decent compromise to convey the humble tone, but that does put it slightly at odds with the text. (Going off of a hardcopy ordered from cdjapan. I'm assuming it's legit, but I honestly don't know for sure.)

Based on Chaos' recent comment, I'm guessing the issue arose because (AFAI remember) Chinese doesn't really have something corresponding to the humble/honorific speech found in Japanese. It's been awhile, though, and my CN was only ever middle/high-school grade anyway (nor was I particularly good with classical texts/or fancier speech), so I could be wrong. Either way, how should such issues be approached? English seems far more limited in that respect, so I'm fine with whatever method of conveying such a tone is deemed appropriate.

I have a few other concerns related to TL, but until I've come to a more complete personal consensus on how to approach them, I intend to refrain from bringing them up.

If it helps to see where I'm coming from, my current approach is to go through and flag any lines that are bugging me, and then come back to compare them to the original JP to see if I can edit them without substantially changing what seems to be the intended TL, or to clarify the TLed EN text while still preserving what seems to be the most likely intended TL. For anything major my current intention is to request confirmation.

Mind, in some cases what I deem "minor" rewording might change the meaning past the threshold for what someone else considers a major edit. With nearly every line being a new paragraph, it's a bit hard to avoid crossing into BT's recommended definition of a major edit. Again, if I do cross any lines feel free to revert and bring it up with me, and I will try to avoid any repeat offenses.

-shift (talk) 18:51, 6 June 2013 (CDT)

Specific TL questions

I'll just leave this here and bring up any possible TL issues I come across. I'm still working on regular English edits on my work-copy (and will try to commit those in batches once I have several or a dozen or so queued up), but I thought I'd start bringing up some of the TL questions I have as I come across them while referencing the JP text. Since I'll probably be editing the section several times, I'll try to save up a few at a time (probably based on proximity in the text) and mark modifications as minor between other people's comments to avoid "changelog spam", as it is. Of course, if you get notified of minor edits that doesn't help you much, so I'll space them out as I can.

Most of the potential TL issues I've come across are relatively minor: a missing modifier, an ambiguous term that might more appropriately be TLed to a different English term but is still close in meaning, etc. I'll try to group them together according to either location and/or perceived severity. Additionally, I'll date additions as they are added so new and old can be differentiated. If this turns out to be too much for the talk page I can switch to email if preferred.

Unless a TL is glaringly obvious based on the actual JP text, all proposed TLs should be considered rough guesses at best until verified. Most lines will be out of context, so you may want to reference a source or the rest of the TL on the wiki.

-shift (talk)

It appears I've gotten a bit stuck on this particular section. There are some more lines I wasn't clear on in the area, but I think for the moment I'll leave it at that and try to focus on other parts of the text.

Addendum: Considering how long it's gotten with so few JP/TL/proposition tuples/triplets, in the future I may just present them grouped together without my reflections added on unless requested. (Sorry about the wall of text. If you figure out a way to present this more clearly and succinctly feel free to mess around with it.)

Clarification / Disagreement

Various: JP 「うん」 TL: "Um." Proposed: As per Akira's response, universal change to some form of affirmative. I could go through and do this, but it will take me a while to track down all of the 「うん」 in the original text of v11c04 to make sure the "um" isn't actually a TL of a different phrase. If it can be guaranteed that all "um"s are TLs of 「うん」, this can of course be done a bit more quickly, but IMO it's probably still best to double-check. (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

---

p259 (roughly line 67 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「麻奈美さん……あたしのこと、バカにしてるわけ？」
TL: "Manami… are you taking me for a fool?"

Proposed: (reworded, honorific inclusion)

"Manami-san...... are you making fun of me?"

I don't necessarily disagree with the original TL, I just think it sounds a little stilted, especially for someone like Kirino. How exactly you decide to finalize the TL 「バカにしてる」 is up to you, I just thought I'd offer some input. "Making fun of" seems more in line with the previous two lines, where Manami says Kirino is so serious all giggly-like or what have you. (Should be a fun convo. to watch in the adaptation, if you've not sworn off it or what-not.)

TBH, I'm not sure if this kind of modification would be considered to be at the editors' discretion. The meaning is close enough that they aren't entirely different, but different enough that they aren't entirely the same, either.

---

p259 (roughly line 70 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「私、最近ずーっと、桐乃ちゃんに言いたかったことがあって。今日の話し合いで絶対に言おうって思うってたんだ――――――――ばかじゃないの？」
TL: "Recently, I had something I really wanted to tell Kirino. So I will say it today — are you an idiot?"

Proposed: (increase length of pause to "ridiculous" levels, slight rewording, +honorofic, inclusion of "plan/decision" to say)

"Lately, there's something I've really wanted to say to Kirino-chan.
So I decided I would definitely say it at today's discussion————————are you an idiot?"

"Lately" vs "Recently" is just my personal preference. I can't really explain it. As for the other alteration, I may be wrong, but the JP text seems to indicate her decision to say this to Kirino was premeditated. And of course re-inclusion of honorifics as indicated by the JP text for consistency with both existing inclusions and the original novel.

As for the very pregnant pause, well... I always did wonder whether the lengthy ellipses and dashes were simply due to the TL and editor's discretion, now it appears I know. 『俺の妹がこんなに可愛いわけがない。』の作者がこんな事をするわけが…確かにあるかも。(Or, if I did that right, "That the author of 'There's no way my little sister could be this cute.' could do such a thing... certainly might be possible.")

---

p259 (roughly line 77 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「ま、まま、麻奈美さん……もしや……怒ってらっしゃいますか？」
TL: "Ta… Tamura… Manami-sama… are you… angry now?"

Proposed: (triple stuttering optional, honorific "sama" substitution to convey humble tone a consideration)

"Ma... Ma-ma... Manami-san... Could it be that... you are angry?"

The more stilted tone is intended, given that Kyousuke-dono seems a fair bit more formal with Manami-sama here. Anyway, I can't humble-speak [sic], so do with it as you will.

Being pedantic, though, the JP text doesn't mention her surname at all, and uses 「さん」 rather than 「様(さま)」. As I noted previously, however, I'd be perfectly agreeable with using the more honorific address to indicate Kyousuke-dono's self-lowering of status since I'm not too keen on something like "could it be that the honorable Manami-san is angry?" That and, I'm really not too clear on how nuances like this would get TLed to EN in general, TBH.

---

p260 (roughly line 83 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「なかったことにしちゃえばいいじゃない。―だってそれは、仕方のないことなんだから」
TL: "Just consider it didn't exist — what can you do about it now?"

Proposed: (reworded, TL slightly modified)

"It's fine to just treat it like it never happened, right? After all, there's nothing you can do about it now."
 or
"You can just treat it like it never happened, can't you? [...]"
"Can't you just treat it like it never happened? [...]"
 etc.

Mostly it's that the first part just feels awkward/unnatural in the original EN TL. I did slightly change the meaning of the second half, though, so I thought I'd run it through first.

---

p260 (roughly line 89 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「二人とも、仲直りして、普通の兄妹になりなさい」
TL: "You two. Please hurry to make up and become normal brother and sister."

Proposed: (rewording, more assertive for agreement with 「なさい」 imperative)

"You two, make up and become normal brother and sister."

Honestly, "become normal brother and sister" sounds a bit odd to me, but I've no idea how else one might TL that.

Suggestion: "become a normal pair of siblings" or, if you want to stick closer to the original, "become a normal pair of brother and sister" (though I'm in turn wondering if it sounds more natural turning "brother and sister" to plurals instead). -Akira (talk) 22:59, 7 June 2013 (CDT)

I think I forgot to reply due to wanting to wait for more feedback on this and other issues. x.x

Anyway, while normally I would lean toward the pl. pairing of "brothers and sisters", in this case I'm inclined to stick with "brother and sister", as they are a singular pair consisting of, well, one of each. But IMO "siblings" wouldn't necessarily be inconsistent with the JP edition, either. If the IME I'm using and JDIC are to be believed, 兄妹 can be read as 『きょうだい(kyoudai)』, and I don't remember seeing it on the mentioned page or anywhere else with the furigana 『けいまい(keimai)』, which is what JDIC indicates as the alternative reading. I'm inclined to think that the line itself just sounds weird to me, rather than the TL (current or proposed) actually being at fault.

Edit: On second thought, I take that back. Even if the readings are potentially the same, the fact is the kanji are for "brother and sister". -shift (talk)

Honestly, this is one of the more minor issues that I noticed/that bugged me while going over the text—although it's also likely a less controversial change than some of the changes I probably committed along the way. -sigh- I rather wish I could "read" the JP at anything faster than a page every 30-40 minutes—it'll be some time before I've managed to compile a comprehensive list for the chapter. If I manage to do so, at that. -shift (talk) 01:25, 12 June 2013 (CDT)

---

p260 (roughly line 91 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: それはとても彼女らしい、お説教の結論だった。
TL: Didn't care about other's thought — that was Manami like when she lectured someone.

Proposed: (rewording, removal of content)

That was a very Manami-like conclusion to a lecture.
 or
Such a conclusion to a lecture was very like her.

Depending on whether or not you want to maintain 『彼女』 rather than substituting in "Manami".

It doesn't seem like the original "Didn't care about other's thought" TL is in there. Rather it seems like that portion is redundant considering the previous "It didn't matter if you are angry or no[t]."

Minor

missing terms / incomplete translations

p260 (roughly line 93 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 後頭部をかく。
TL: She scratched her head:

Proposed: (modifier inclusion, colon -> period)

She scratched the back of her head.

---

p260 (roughly line 93 on the wiki): (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 窘める麻奈美と、真っ直ぐ向き合う。韜晦するつもりはなかった。
TL: I faced Manami. I have no intention of hiding.

Proposed: (modifier inclusion, tense correction)

I faced the reproving Manami directly. I had no intention of hiding.

I'm basing "reproving" off of JP-EN dictionary results for 『窘める』. It yields "chide", "rebuke", and "reprove". "Reproving" is just my personal preference, though I do feel "rebuke" and "chide" are too negative in tone, esp. considering how ... toned down 地味子(Manami) usually is.

ambiguous terms

Later.

Major

completely different meaning

p261 (roughly line 102 on the wiki), where Kirino and Kyousuke-shi are talking about what it means to "make up" with each other: (00:46, 7 June 2013 (CDT))

JP: 「違うよね？そうじゃないよね？いまここで話し合ってる『仲直り』って―そいうことじゃ……ないでしょ？」
TL: "Isn't that right? Isn't that the same as now? We are 'making up' — aren't we?"

To me it seems more like the complete opposite:

"That's wrong, isn't it? It's not like that, is it? The 'making up' we're discussing here (and) now—that's not... it, right?"

Revisions (June 07-11, 2013, UTC)

Well, I went ahead and committed a batch of edits. For the moment the majority of them should be limited to the existing TLed text. Slight rewording for clarity/grammar, tense fixes, et cetera. I only made it about half-way through, and didn't clear up everything I might've wanted to, but hopefully I also avoided changing things I probably shouldn't just yet.

There are still several things I want to TLC against the JP edition when I get a chance, but for the moment I've attempted to refrain from doing so unless it seemed pretty straightforward. As the summary indicates, I've included annotations along with some of the changes (hopefully for the potentially more problematic/confusing ones, at least). I would have simply pointed them out here, but felt they might be more useful in context. Feel free to remove them if there are no objections, or move them off of the main page and directly into talk if need be.

As always, if there are any issues, please don't hesitate to point them out. If so far the edits seem fine, I'll just skip updating talk for each revision unless there's something specific to address.

-shift (talk) 03:17, 7 June 2013 (CDT)

Update: As I've mentioned, for the most part I only really changed things that jumped out at me and that I felt I could improve quickly, and that wouldn't involve any real TLC ("TL check", not "tender loving care", although... maybe that too XD). I also only flagged (be it locally or on the wiki) lines for TLC if the existing EN TL particularly bugged me or I was already referencing nearby lines. I haven't yet bothered/started comparing every line, since it would take me significantly longer, and I doubt the average reader would even notice if a line wasn't 100% faithful to the JP version (unlike for audio-visual media), whereas they would notice if a line is unclear in the TL.

Hopefully my annotations make it clear where more significant changes were a result of consulting the text, though for the most part I tried to just flag potential discrepancies and only change their meaning if the existing EN was too unclear to not consult the text.

Now that I'm done with that, I'll probably go back and see what else I can do to clarify/smooth over any other lines that are bugging me, and maybe look more closely at the JP version—or I might put off the last part until after v12 or at least v11ep and v12pro. That I will most likely do in one large batch (both the edits and bringing up any possible TL issues with the TLer). Unless there is someone else interested in the TL itself or doing TLC in the background, I will most likely just email potential TL issues to Chaos.

As I've noted, please bring up any issues with my edits/actions that may come up and even revert/change them as necessary. I don't have much experience with wikis, never mind TL projects, and while I'm trying to avoid overstepping, I do tend to get... a bit over-enthusiastic/carried away sometimes.

Also, and I would assume this to go without saying, please do continue to make whatever edits you plan on making—my own working copy is organized by line, so figuring out which diffs to apply is fairly trivial.

PS Don't worry, my "commas go where they would go by a programmer's/mathematician's logic" stance shouldn't be reflected in the wiki. Even if I do accidentally commit a few when I change a line, I've no intention of starting an EW over it.

-shift (talk) 09:32, 8 June 2013 (CDT)

Update (19:44, 10 June 2013 (CDT))

Second pass changed a few more things. There are still several places I haven't been able to edit without TLC/clarification or due to being unclear on certain style/format issues (though-italics and determination, colons/commas/periods marking off character speech, handling of 『、』 emphasis, certain tense issues, etc.). Some of the places I wanted to edit this time but couldn't at least tentatively edit I've flagged using comments—searching for "<!-- FLAG" or just comments in general should bring them up.

For now I think I'll take a break from ch4 and look at v11epi and v12pro. After v12 is done with TL and touched up a bit I might come back for more thorough verification against the JP edition and editing after becoming clearer on the style/format issues, if doing so is still needed/desirable at that point.

As always, if there are any issues please do bring them to my attention. -shift (talk)