Talk:No Game No Life
Volume and Chapter titles
Realized we haven't been including them, so figured we should probably do so. I'll give my take on the volume titles and translations, but as I'm not a translator for the LNs, final say goes to those who are.
No Game No Life 1: The Gamer Siblings Appear to be Conquering a Fantasy World / ノーゲーム・ノーライフ1 ゲーマー兄妹がファンタジー世界を征服するそうです
No Game No Life 2: The Gamer Siblings Seem to Have Their Sights on the Land of Animal Ear Girls / ノーゲーム・ノーライフ2 ゲーマー兄妹が獣耳っ子の国に目をつけたようです
No Game No Life 3: A Counterpart of the Gamer Siblings Seems to have Disappeared...? / ノノーゲーム・ノーライフ3 ゲーマー兄妹の片割れが消えたようですが……？
No Game No Life 4: The Gamer Siblings Have Ran Away from Realistic Romance Games / ノノーゲーム・ノーライフ４ ゲーマー兄妹はリアル恋愛ゲームから逃げ出しました
Should probably work on the chapter titles too, but they're pretty straightforward. Helps the author includes their titles in what would be English. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 21:43, 3 August 2013 (CDT)
- Minor corrections:
- 'The Gamer Siblings Appear to be Conquering' -> 'It Seems Gamer Siblings Will Conquer' (not present tense (specifically, non-past used as future tense), and the first introduction of the siblings so no 'The' yet).
- Though minor, 'Have Their Sights' -> 'Have Set Their Sights' (past tense, not present or non-past); also, perhaps 'Land' -> 'Country' or 'Nation'.
- 'A Counterpart' -> 'One Half' (Sora, rather than a counterpart pair).
- 'Have Ran Away' -> 'Have Run Away', 'Realistic Romance Games' -> 'a Realistic Romance Game' (only one game, the one with the sleeping mermaid(?) Queen person).
- -Multipartite (talk) 02:17, 4 August 2013 (CDT)
Adding thoughts on chapter titles as well. Using ≪≫ to represent furigana. First one's straightforward as can be.
Prologue / プロローグ
Chapter 1: Beginner / 素人≪ビギナー≫
Chapter 2: Challenger / 挑戦者≪チャレンジャー≫
Chapter 3: Expert / 熟練者≪エキスパート≫
Chapter 4: Grand Master / 国王≪グランドマスター≫
Epilogue / エピローグ
All the titles (minus epilogue) are Chess terms.
Opening / オープニング (Replaces the prologue.)
Chapter 1: Weak Square / 駒並べ≪ウィークスクエア≫
Chapter 2: Interesting / 一手≪インタレスティング≫ (Move name in Japan for an interesting move that doesn't (I think) carry over to English. "Out of Book" or "Novelty" could be good replacements.)
Chapter 3: Sacrifice / 死に手≪サクリファイス≫
Chapter 4: Checkmate / 王手≪チェックメイト≫
Fake Ending / フェイクエンド (Also replaces the epilogue.)
Not really sure what these are all about. Kanji and furigana meanings differ.
Load Save / データロード
Chapter 1: Sky Walk / 解離法≪スカイ・ウオーク≫
Chapter 2: Blue Rose / 指向法≪ブルー・ローズ≫
Chapter 3: Killing Giant / 誘導法≪キリング・ジャイアント≫
Chapter 4: Rule Number 10 / 収束法≪ルール・ナンバー・10≫
True Ending / トゥルーエンド
This novel also plays with the kanji, having them be different from the furigana definitions. And two of the chapter's kanji are upside-down. I can't figure out how to make Japanese upside down (it's not that hard for English, though), but know that the kanji for chapters 1 and 3 are supposed to be upside down.
Easy Start / イージースタート
Chapter 1: Encounter / 悪魔≪エンカウント≫
Chapter 2: Strategist / 太陽≪ストラテジスト≫
Chapter 3: Charmer / 女帝≪チャーマー≫
Chapter 4: Wildcard / 愚者≪ワイルドカード≫
Interrupted Ending / インタラプトエンド
ᗡ Could do fun things with this, like Encounteruoɯǝ , but I personally dislike the furigana text format quite a bit. I completely ignored the kanji meanings if anyone wants suggest what do with them or how to translate them. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 04:45, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
- I'll come back to this in a short while once I have more time; for now, a quick note that the upside-down names in the fourth volume's chapters seem to be Tarot (Major Arcana) references. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_arcana#List_of_the_Major_Arcana ) For instance, the chapter which bears the meaning of 'Charmer' would probably be given as 'The Empress reversed'--I suggest that Tarot-evoking representation rather than forcing upside-downness, though upsidedown-ness might in fact be more true to the original. For a non-furigana format, perhaps 'Charmer (The Empress reversed)' or similar. For each volume, the slight differences between reading and meaning are interesting (though sometimes a little hard to understand), so I would like them to be retained in some format if possible. Speaking of which, thank you for putting the kanji (and katana) here for easy copying/investigation! In a short while, when I have a little more time, I'll look at the first three volumes and give suggestions. For now, the fourth volume: Encounter (The Devil reversed), Strategist (The Sun), Charmer (The Empress reversed), Wildcard (The Fool). -Multipartite (talk) 05:17, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
Suggestions for the chapter titles (first volume too for consistency, even when redundant):
[Disclaimer: I do not claim a deep understanding of certain things, and so the below can be treated as interim suggestions until someone finds more accurate equivalents.]
Beginner (Amateur), Challenger (Challenger), Expert (Expert), Grandmaster (Country's King)
['Kokuou' especially it would be good if there were a better term for that which still distinguished it from 'Ou' or 'Ou-sama'.]
[Ah, also 'Grandmaster' (as in Chess) is spelled as one word.]
- I'm actually just for using the furigana since all but one of them match perfectly, and Grandmaster is fine for me. There's plenty of words in English for "King," but in this case, "King" is the most fitting. Don't have to specify king of what.
Weak Square (Setting the Board), Interesting (One Move), Sacrifice (Doomed Move), Checkmate (Check)
['Checkmate' would in practice be '王手詰み' perhaps... this may be ignoring intention for accuracy, however. For '死に手', I tried to use a phrasing that reflected the inevitable death of the piece without indicating whether something stood to be gained from it or not.]
Since it's in katakana, it may be worth keeping the closing part for this one as 'Fake End' rather than adding sounds. Particularly, it doesn't use 'エンディング' even though Opening uses 'オープニング'.
- Doomed move to me means a move that will fail whereas a sacrifice results in death, but for a purpose. So something like "Mortal Move" would be better for the kanji; somewhat difficult to word it without making it sound like a great move. There's still the whole "Interesting" isn't a Chess term in English though.
For the third volume, I would similar suggest a direct 'Data Load'/'True End' transliteration.
[Unfortunately I have no idea what source was used for these; 'Blue Rose' in particular prompts my curiosity. It's possible they are obscure references, such as the breeding of a blue rose or the killing of giant through leading it into traps. I searched somewhat for game strategy names, but could not find any of relevance. If there exists one game with these strategies, there could be more appropriate translations of the kanji words.]
Sky Walk (Dissociation Method), Blue Rose (Orientation Method), Killing Giant (Guiding Method), Rule Number 10 (Converging Method)
- Problem with "Data Load". Data load is a common phrase in Japanese for our equivalent of loading saves. At the very least, it would have to be "Load Data" to keep the same meaning and fluidity (as it generally only appears as an option to load save data in games). ローズ could also be "Laws," not that helps any. I still have no idea what these are reference to.
(For the fourth volume, similarly 'Interrupt End' perhaps; 'Encount' is an exception in that it does not phonetically correspond to an/its English word.)
Encounter (The Devil reversed), Strategist (The Sun), Charmer (The Empress reversed), Wildcard (The Fool)
-Multipartite (talk) 09:05, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
- Didn't realize they were Tarot names (Only used to seeing those English). Like I said, I dislike furigana so I don't have any ways I'd personally like to implement it aside from making them look together to begin with. And "Interrupt End" is Engrish unless we're talking coding, which I don't think he is considering the "End" theme. "Interrupt" has to at least be "Interrupted" or "Interruption". Even インタラプトエンド isn't really used in Japanese without it being "インタラプトエンドポイント", or Interrupt Endpoint like in English. And as noted with "Encount," the Japanese don't always (or actually most the time) use our words like we would. "End" can also be used as "Ending" despite there being differences in English, but in these cases either works fine. I just went with "Ending" to supplement "Opening," despite that "Opening" was most likely simply used as a chess term there. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 15:02, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
Okay, I added the chapter names. I kept in the Furigana because I wasn't sure whether you wanted them to be in the title's name or not. If not, go ahead and delete them. I changed Orientation Method to Directional Method because orientation sound too much like a school term in my opinion. As for the Epilogues, instead of Ending, I used End. While it may seem incorrect from an English point of view, I see phrases like these all the time (Happy End, Bad End, Good End...especially in galges and TWGOK). I'd just like to keep it more directly translated...maybe because the words seem to have a different feeling? It also stays truer to how "End" is used in other materials as well. I also kept it as Interrupt End, so you can figure out whether it's "Interrupted" or "Interrupting" or "Interrupter" or whatnot. Thanks for helping out with all of this. It really helps, and I never knew there was an epilogue...(I'm a simple editor.)
I think the katakana should be changed to english words because there are people who can't read them.
I suggest to change it to English of Furigana <<English of Kanji>>
Furigana is written first because that is how people will read it and it's followed by the kanji to show it's meaning (and maybe adding this as a footnote for the title in chapter will help readers understand it).
Or another way to write it would be like #2 in here: http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Itsuka_Tenma_no_Kuro_Usagi:Volume_1#Translator.27s_Notes_and_References
I don't really think that's necessary. If you can read the katakana, it reads the first word of the chapter names. For example, Chapter 4: Grandmaster/The King ≪グランドマスター≫. If I translated the katakana, it would be read: Grandmaster/The King «Grandmaster». Besides, I'm not sure if the katakana should be in the chapter titles anyway, so depending on what EnigmaticRepose says, it may be deleted at any time.
I don't see a reason to keep the katakana from the furigana in. While it can make the chapter titles look exotic, it just looks like "Grandmaster/The King/Grandmaster" to those who can read it. Could always dick with the upsidedown arcana in volume 4, too. Like: lıʌǝᗡ ǝɥ⊥. Didn't feel like doing the fancy formatting this time.—EnigmaticRepose (talk) 21:07, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
EnigmaticRepose, did you mean "stick" instead of "dick"? If you'd want to do that, then it's fine. I have removed the katakana from the titles, and I have changed "Interesting" to "Unexpected Move". It makes sense to me, but if you disagree, then by all means, change it to what you think is right.
- Nah, I said the word I meant. I only want to keep it consistent with Chess terminology. Specifically, if you wanted a meaning of "unexpected move," "Shot" would be the chess term equivalent. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
Something of a flurry back and forth, so throwing in my current strongest impressions:
(Though this is reiteration,) As a general pedantic tendency, I tend to suggest that translations and transliterations be kept as close to their original as possible, especially when the original author could have chosen different wording and didn't.
I agree that having both katakana and the transliteration of the katakana would be redundant. Relevantly, kanji and katakana appear once each in the book's chapter titles, with no third part (other than the chapter number).
I do not mind whether angle brackets or parentheses or some other form of brackets are used, but I request if possible that the kanji translations be in some form of brackets to indicate 'this is the (kanji) meaning'. As it is, with slashes, it looks as though it's two separate equal titles, losing the 'This is how it's read (This is what it means)' two-levels nuance.
-Multipartite (talk) 22:29, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
Go ahead and do that. How about with the ≪≫ that you used for the katakana above? I would do it myself, but those two brackets always end up small and strange for some reason...don't forget that the chapters themselves need the same editing as well. I also like keeping things close to their original meaning...do you mean to say that Sacrificial Move should be changed back to Doomed Move, and Unexpected Move back to Interesting?
To Multi: I love keeping in original writing quirks and tendencies as well, it's just the author's knowledge of other languages often shows in these wording choices. So it's a problem of accuracy and fluidity over trusting the author knows a language that he has shown no real experience in. I've seen way too much Engrish to trust an author unless they straight-out spell it in English with proper grammar. Very few ever do this. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
I thought he was Brazilian? Or was that just his heritage?
It gives him more credibility than I believed he had. But doesn't 「幼少期はアメリカで過ごし、小学生の時に日本に移住」 mean he spent his early childhood in the US, but immigrated to Japan sometime during elementary school? I've known a couple guys in similar circumstances who have forgotten the majority of their original language. Granted I never asked how early they moved to the US for reference. But still, final say goes to the translator (aka the one who speaks Japanese). Things like "Interrupt End" just comes off as Engrish without changing it somehow. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 23:48, 8 August 2013 (CDT)
Well, Drinkingwater is translating from Chinese...our Japanese translator is Seitsuki. On a different topic, how about cleaning this page?
As you've probably noticed this novel goes with small changes to the names we commonly know (imanity=humanity, danpires=vampires, seren=siren, etc) so I suggest the change Jibril -> Gibriel, especially with the appearance of Azrael. --jonathanasdf (talk) 02:56, 5 January 2014 (CST)
Personally don't see a reason to. And they aren't small, nonsensical variations to what we know; they're mostly from different origins. Instead of calling the sea people the English "Sirens", he uses the original Greek "Seirenes". Dhampirs and vampires are also different to begin with. One thing I will note, however, is the manga localizes Steph's name as "Stephanie Dola". I'm conflicted whether I should personally care enough to change it, as both "Stephanie" and "Dora" are of Greek origin as well, and Dola is a what-are-you-even-doing thing to me. I mean, there's nothing technically wrong with it as it is a name, but it just seems off to me. —EnigmaticRepose (talk) 03:20, 5 January 2014 (CST)