Talk:Rakuin no Monshou:Volume1 Chapter4
Splendid work at 4 percent! -(talk)
Cleaned this page up a bit; removed resolved issues. --Dohma (talk) 06:51, 31 May 2013 (CDT)
In "What… a lie?" A suggest would be to change it to "What...is a lie?", since in the raw it says （何が、嘘、だ).
- I find Orba's entire comment puzzling, because he knows he's lying, so what is he surprised about? I assume he's surprised about the fact she accused him for a liar. So I translated into something like : "What? A lie?". Your translation is indeed closer to the original, but it makes me wonder what Orba means by it.
- I think what Orba means is that he is surprised by Vileena calling him out on lying, since they were unfamiliar, and also of high rank, and probably shouldn't be using casual language.
"During that staggering time, a dense cloud of dust swelled up on the other side of the arena." "Staggering time" sounds really awkward here; I know that in the raw it says よろめいたその間, so I'm not sure what suggestions that I can make other than that it sounds awkward.
- From what I get it's supposed to either mean: "during that lapse in time" or "during the time (where he was) staggering" due to the tremors, I translated it a bit more literally because I can't quite figure out which one it's supposed to be.
”The moment he removed his aim”, about this part, 狙いの外したその瞬間, its rather hard to translate. Perhaps the soldier stopped aiming at the dragon?
- 狙いの外した can also mean he missed the mark, so I'm not quite sure if he took a shot and missed or if he stopped aiming, so I translated it literally.
- I see. It's good then, since I'm not really sure what is being said there as well.
Sorry about that mountain of suggestions! Really nice translation as normal, keep up the great work! Also, my bad on the changing the "wilfully" part (both the first and the second time), didn't know that the British English had a different version, and don't know what happened the second time (I think I had the page open before you edited it, and didn't save until afterwards). --Kiydon.
- No problem, thanks for checking the text. --C (talk) 06:00, 19 May 2013 (CDT)
A very fluent read at 45 percent. I will keep checking but I didn't notice any obvious errors. Thanks again for your hard work - (talk)
....but now you seem to smile, thinking of something pleasant.
"thinking of something pleasant" seems awkward in the context. What is suppose to be said here in this area.
- Vileena is commenting on Orba smiling in what she perceives to be him thinking of happy things and smiling. --Kiydon
- Indeed: 幸せそうな思い出し笑い - He smiles as if he's thinking (back) on / recalling something pleasant. If it sounds awkward it can be changed to: "... but now you seem to smile, as if you're thinking of something pleasant." but I didn't want to make the sentence too long.
Going through the newer section; found a few minor mistakes that I'll fix, and a few suggestions as well.
"She was unable to say a word, as it became a lump of saliva caught in her throat." I suggest changing it to "She was unable to say a word, as a lump of saliva was caught in her throat", to fix various issues.
- The impression I got from the original phrasing was that it was an intentional figurative expression that the "word... became a lump of saliva," which is lost in the above proposed change. If that expression was intentional, then my a bit more liberal suggestion to include it is "Her words caught (or maybe 'stuck') in her throat as a lump of saliva, and she was unable to say a thing." --Cthaeh (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2013 (CDT)
- What I was referring here was that it didn't make much sense for a word to become a lump of saliva. The raw actually says nothing about "a word", as it says 「声を出したつもりが、しかし唾の塊となって喉に引っかかっただけだった。」, which basically translates to "She meant to speak, but a lump of saliva formed(?) and was stuck in her throat." What is confusing here is the なって (to become) after 唾の塊 (lump of saliva), because there really isn't something that can "form into" a lump of saliva. --Kiydon
- I agree that it doesn't make sense for the word to literally become a lump of saliva, but I consider it a reasonable figurative expression. One again, I think it's merely a difference of opinion/perspective. Though I have no idea if that expression is consistent with the correct interpretation of the JP. --Cthaeh (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2013 (CDT)
- I mistakenly made a typo in the first part as 声を出したとむりが, which would mean she was unable to speak, so that's my mistake. The raw does say that she 'intended to speak/use her voice' but what she was trying to say 'became a lump of saliva'. However, if that sounds strange in English we can dismiss the entire 'became' part. A suggestion would be: "She meant to speak, but it got caught in her throat as a lump of saliva" (its closer to the original) or "She meant to speak, but a lump of saliva got caught in her throat." The problem is whether we want to keep it as close to the original as possible or just keep it simple. A dilemma that seems to be coming up again and again while translating :). If the first suggestion still feels awkward, we can go with the last. --Dohma (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2013 (CDT)
- I feel like that the second sounds better, so I'll vote for going with keeping it simple and making it flow better. --Kiydon
- I agree that the second sounds better; in this case because "it" in the second part of the first option doesn't have a noun (such"her word(s)") in the first part to reference to. In general, the figurative expression of a word or words becoming a lump of saliva seems perfectly natural from my perspective. However, it certainly isn't necessary to do use a figurative expression that way if you're not trying to match an equivalent type of expression in the original jp. --Cthaeh (talk) 21:08, 3 June 2013 (CDT)
"Also inform Gowen to let anyone who can stand in arms cooperate." I think that something along the lines of "Also inform Gowen to let anyone who can fight assist us" would be a better translation for (ゴーウィンにも伝えて、何人か腕の立つ者に協力させろ）, as though the current one is an accurate translation, it doesn't make much sense in English.
- I thought someone who can 'stand in arms' was something in the lines of someone who can 'carry a weapon'. Basically 腕の立つ is an Japanese idiom/expression of someone who is skilled/able to do something (in this case fight). Whenever an expression is used, I also like to use some sort of expression. I do prefer 協力 to be translated as 'cooperate' instead of 'assist' though [1], mainly due to the nature of the separate kanji meanings, or 'lend a hand'. --Dohma (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2013 (CDT)
- I changed it to "Also inform Gowen to let anyone who can fight lend a hand."
"While making sure to guard his back...", I think what is meant here is that Orba is taking care not to expose his back too much, rather than guarding his back, since he's hiding from the sniper.
- You're right about the fact that it means he doesn't want to expose himself too much that his back gets out of hiding. That's why I chose 'guard', but "While making sure not to expose his back" or "While making sure to watch his back" is probably better. I'll mull over it for a while...
"'We don’t know either. But it’s going well.'" is a good translation of わからんよ、おれたちにも。だが、都合はいいな, so it's fine.
- Ok, thanks - I'll remove the TN.
"With the thought that Vileena was in the hidden passage all alone, it was likely that the soldiers who had guided Orba here were involved with the dragon rampage and the sniping at Prince Gil". I feel that "at Prince Gil" is unnecessary here, and just makes the sentence more awkward.
- I can't deny that it sounds strange, but that's what the raw says, sort of like 'the attack on the prince', so I left it there. I'll omit it, though, because its a bit unnecessary as the reader knows Orba is substituting Gil.
Good job translating once again, as this section was a pretty smooth read! --Kiydon
Bringing up this recent change for a little review: I think that both are correct grammatically. I would say the meaning implied by the original phrasing of "rolled over the ground and ..." is that the motion of rolling was done to travel distance. The new phrasing of "rolled over on the ground" changes the focus of the statement to the change in orientation (face-down to face-up), and somewhat implies it was a single roll. Since that motion is followed by "snatched a gun," I would have guessed that the intended focus was on the getting from one place to the other; and if that's the case, the most appropriate version might depend on the number of rolls, but I would have favored the original phrasing at first glance. I have no idea about the original, just bringing it up for a second look. (sigh, that's a lot of words for just two letters...) --Cthaeh (talk) 18:19, 1 June 2013 (CDT)
- Rolled over the ground implies that Vileena is rolling over "the ground", since, which I highly doubt she has the ability to do so. Rolled over "on" the ground would mean that she is the one rolling, not the ground. The lack of a preposition changes the meaning of the phrase. I'm not sure if I explained that right, though. --Kiydon
- -I think I see where you're coming from now, but I still think the original wording is valid and may be more appropriate depending on the intended meaning. I hadn't considered it, but from what I understand you have parsed the sentence as [Vileena] [nimbly] [rolled over] (on) [the ground]. The intuitive interpretation for me was [Vileena] [nimbly] [rolled] [over the ground], where "over" was part of the description of where Vileena was doing the rolling instead of being paired with the verb. At this point I think it's merely a difference in perspective and probably doesn't warrant additional discussion (if it even warranted my starting the discussion to begin with). --Cthaeh (talk) 23:58, 1 June 2013 (CDT)
- I see what you mean. I see "the ground" as an object, because "over" seems to be actually a bit important to the sentence. If you take out "over the ground", you'll be left with "Vileena nimbly rolled [] and snatched a gun from the waist of a soldier", versus taking out "on the ground" and "Vileena nimbly rolled over [] and snatched a gun from the waist of a soldier". Personally, I think the second sounds better, though again your view is not incorrect either. --Kiydon
- I'm not going to decide on this discussion, since it seems to be dedicated to the nuances of English, and I honestly don't know which is better. What I can add though is that in this sentence 地面を転がって 'the ground' is the direct object (due to the particle を) and 'to roll (over)' is the verb. That's my dictionary entry: 'roll (over)' [2], but I don't really know when you have to add 'over'. So in that case I see where Kiydon's coming from because Vileena can't 'roll the ground'. On the other hand, if it was 'on the ground' the particle に would have been used (地面に転がって), making it an indirect object or passive agent. I hope I'm making some sense.
- So, is '[roll over] [the ground]' the same as '[roll] [the ground]', or is it '[roll] [over the ground]' which is the same as '[roll] [on the ground]'? This issue kind of intrigues me so I'd like to know which one's correct. I'll leave you two to make a decision and stand by whatever you decide is best.
- If you want me to make a pick an option though, I will. --Dohma (talk) 05:56, 3 June 2013 (CDT)
- Grammatically, both are correct, as far as I know. In [roll over], over acts as a preposition to [the ground], indicating that the ground is being [rolled], though in a different sense than in [roll] [over the ground], which is indicating that a rolling action is being performed over the ground. It really depends on the context, but it does seem to me confusing sometimes. It didn't bother me that much on a second read-through, so it's not really that big of a deal, since I didn't really find anything that pointed things in one way or another. Keeping it as it is is fine, so it's up to you if you want to change it. --Kiydon
- I agree with the above. Both uses fit the context in this case. Though if the dictionary translation was "roll over", then it may be more appropriate with the "on" in there. Though it probably isn't a big enough deal to have generated all this discussion either way. --Cthaeh (talk) 21:08, 3 June 2013 (CDT)
I just proofed over this section, and here are my notes on the part you wanted to double-check.
This sentence, "'This man may be involved in a country-wide conspiracy.'" is fine.
The second sentence I'm not so sure about, "'He most likely exchanged words with someone else, right?'". In the raw, it says 大方、何者かに利用された口だろう, which I take to roughly mean "Perhaps he was used by someone".
I think that "'He seems to be responsible for hiring these people from someone without knowing a thing, but he can’t say from whom.'" is incorrect. In the raw, it says 何も知らずこの者たちを雇ったメフィウス側の人間にも責任があると思え。誰と言わぬがな。, which I would translate to "Hiring these people without knowing anything about them, the people from Mephius have some responsibility for what happened, I think. No one can really tell right now.". Maybe you meant to use this sentence as part of the previous one?
"'Don’t you dare forsake your responsibilities and execute even one of these sword-slaves without permission. I’ll have his head – I’ll take it off with my own sword!'" In the raw, it says もし責任を押しつけ、剣奴のひとりでも勝手に処刑してみろ。そいつの首こそ、おれの――余の剣で、撥ねてやるぞ, which I would translate to "If anyone forces responsibility on, and arbitrarily execute any of these sword-slaves, then by my――no, our (majestic plural) sword, I will have his head!".
- Thanks for the help. I couldn't see the forest for the trees there. About the last sentence: '責任を押しつける' can also mean to 'shift responsibility' - the expression isn't familiar to me, so I wonder if it means to 'shift the blame', or to 'pass on one's duties'. I've left the term 'shift responsibility' for now...
Also, I'm not so sure about the majestic plural thing - I believe only kings and queens do that. Besides, 余 means 'I', not 'we', but has a more dignified sound. In this case Orba corrects himself, because おれ doesn't sound very prince-like, so I see why you'd translate it like that. However, I couldn't really think of a dignified synonym for I, and thought it better to change it either to 'my own' or 'myself' for emphasis. I guess I could leave a translation note for the readers, though, to explain what's really said...
- I used the majestic plural with a translation note. Browsing on the internet, it isn't that uncommon for other people of high function to say 'we'. Apparently Margeret Tatcher did it... Not sure if that's a good reference, though.
These are my takes on the translations for this part. The other parts are fine. Good job and thanks for the translation once again! --Kiydon.
"Even back when I was a gladiator, I don’t recall having fights to remember so much." Perhaps change the last part to 'I don't recall having any memorable fights'. Also, "Show refinement in your pose, strain your upper arms, but keep it supple from the elbow down – isn’t that so?” Maybe change the word from 'pose' to 'posture'? Hope I didn't make any unnecessary comments.--Vu.P (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2013 (CDT)
- The expression used here (名を残すほどの戦い) is something more like: 'to leave a name' 'go down in history' or 'to be remembered'. I get the feeling 'memorable' isn't quite up there, as the fights might have been memorable for Gowen, but that doesn't mean he left a name for himself. I changed it to 'to be remembered', though, for that sounds better now that I'm reviewing my own explanation. The pose > posture suggestion's good, so I'll change that.
- Also about your edit: "So, really, where Your Highness learned the name of someone like me…" to "where did Your Highness learn the name of someone like me..." is grammatically correct. However, in the raw, Gowen never finishes his sentence because he either trails off or Orba interjects. As in: "Where Your Highness learned the name of someone like me... ...I would like to know" or "...I can't imagine." I'm not really sure how to correctly convert this into English without it sounding strange, though.
That's great. About the word 'memorable', the literal definition is something easily remembered or worth remembering so it should fit into the context and creates a better sentence flow in my opinion. However, you can also consider synonyms such as remarkable, notable, or noteworthy.--Vu.P (talk) 15:13, 18 June 2013 (CDT)
- Did some reviewing with usage notes on '名を残す'. Although your suggestion is not wrong per se, in the original it's used as a verb, and in some cases I don't mind changing it into an adjective for better readability, but in this case I think it stands better if it remains as such. However, all example sentences I've checked translate this as 'to leave a name' or 'to leave a mark' (in history). So I've changed it to: "I don't remember having any fights to leave such a mark."
Okay, thanks. Sounds much better and more fluid now.--Vu.P (talk) 06:45, 21 June 2013 (CDT)
